That's my take on it, too. Or at least it was. That's the answer that feels right to me. Although I do see merit to the argument that it really reads as "Whenever a -1/-1 counter is placed on a creature while it's on the battlefield or a creature enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it ... ". That would be the more literal reading, based on the rule (121.6) as written. And if the trigger were written out like that, Torpor Orb would almost certainly shut down the blue part. While that interpretation doesn't feel "right" to me, it's not inconceivable, either.
Would the blue part of "Whenever Sun Titan enters the battlefield or attacks," also be "almost certainly" shut down by Torpor Orb?
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
This quote here from Flourishing Defenses Gatherer page is a big part of what makes me think it will trigger:
This ability triggers both when a -1/-1 counter is put on a creature on the battlefield and when a creature enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it. This includes when a creature returns to the battlefield as a result of persist.
The fact that it can trigger on creatures entering the battlefield with counters means that at some point it must be able to see that creature without those counters, and therefore the two things must be distinct events. They may be happening at the same time, and as a result of the same effect, but they have to happen separately in order for that ruling to work.
This is not true. The creature never exists without counters on it. Counters are not even put on the creature. They were always there. The only reason the ability triggers when Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield, is because of rule 121.6, which is a unique exception. If that rule did not exist the ability would not trigger.
121.6. If a spell or ability refers to a counter being "placed" on a permanent, it means putting a counter on that permanent while it's on the battlefield, or that permanent entering the battlefield with a counter on it as the result of a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
The way I see it, that rule is not an exception at all - it exists because of the fact that two events are occuring. They occur as part of the same resolution, so for (virtually) all intents and purposes it might as well be one thing because there is no time to check the game state in between, but in this specific case there would be a distinction.
[Edit: maybe that's what you meant already, and I'm just misunderstanding your post.]
All I'm saying is thatFlourishing Defenses doesn't trigger on ETB, therefore the Orb doesn't affect it. I only mentioned the counter placement ruling to point out that the Orb can't prevent it, and it's the placement of those counters not the event of ETB that is responsible for the tokens.
Exactly, it triggers o,n the placement of those counters, ad those are place AS the specific creature enters the battlefield.
That triggers triggers as the creature enters the battlefield then the trigger is put on the stack. Question is: does Torpor Orb look for abilities that trigger after that event or does it have to look for both (both are put on the stack at the same time, maybe that's what the confusion is about)?
I tend to think more and more that Flourishing Defenses won't trigger in that situation...
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?
How to autocard (do this to specify a card in your posts): Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus . Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One .
I think Torpor Orb 's intention is to stop only abilities that are written "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield" or "When [this] creature enters the battlefield", and Flourishing Defenses does not care about that.
It does happen that counters are being "placed" on something as it enters the battlefield, but Torpor Orb 's rulings specifically state that it does not affect those things.
Etched Monstrosity resolves, and is put onto the battlefield with some -1/-1 counters on it. (Which, again, Torpor Orb rulings say that it specifically does not care about)
Torpor Orb sees Etched Monstrosity enter the battlefield, and makes sure nothing triggers on a creature entering the battlefield.
Flourishing Defenses sees that -1/-1 counters were placed on one of Player A's creatures, and triggers.
I don't see how "Counters being placed" and "When a creature enters the battlefield" are the same thing with regard to effect wording on a card. I think that's what this argument really boils down to.
I think Torpor Orb 's intention is to stop only abilities that are written "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield" or "When [this] creature enters the battlefield", and Flourishing Defenses does not care about that.
It does happen that counters are being "placed" on something as it enters the battlefield, but Torpor Orb 's rulings specifically state that it does not affect those things.
Etched Monstrosity resolves, and is put onto the battlefield with some -1/-1 counters on it. (Which, again, Torpor Orb rulings say that it specifically does not care about)
Torpor Orb sees Etched Monstrosity enter the battlefield, and makes sure nothing triggers on a creature entering the battlefield.
Flourishing Defenses sees that -1/-1 counters were placed on one of Player A's creatures, and triggers.
I don't see how "Counters being placed" and "When a creature enters the battlefield" are the same thing with regard to effect wording on a card. I think that's what this argument really boils down to.
The issue is that the trigger triggers just after the creature entered the field and that somehow the placing of those counters may be linked to that, thus the orb preventing the trigger to go on the stack.
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?
How to autocard (do this to specify a card in your posts): Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus . Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One .
I think Torpor Orb 's intention is to stop only abilities that are written "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield" or "When [this] creature enters the battlefield", and Flourishing Defenses does not care about that.
I don't think so. It also stops "whenever a permanent enters the battlefield", "whenever an artifact [or another permanent type] enters the battlefield", "whenever an ally [or other creature type] enters the battlefield", as long as the permanent/artifact/ally/whatever is also a creature.
Torpor Orb can prevent multiple type of triggers, as long as they are triggering because a creature entered, even when the trigger also triggers for non-creature-entering events (like the above examples do).
A creature entering the battlefield tapped is something that triggers Amulet of Vigor. Torpor Orb prevents this.
A creature entering with -1/-1 counters is one of the things that triggers Flourishing Defenses. Torpor Orb should also prevent this trigger!
Assume flourishing defenses had the following wording (which i know does not represent the full range of its true functionality):
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield with -1/-1 counters on it, you may put a 1/1 green elf warrior creature token onto the battlefield.
I think it's pretty clear that torpor orb would shut down this wording, just as it can shut down things that trigger on a creature "entering the battlefield tapped" or "entering the battlefield under your control".
The important thing to figure out then, is what does flourishing defenses actual ability actually mean (2 times the actual!). The only rule to work from for discovering it's true meaning is this one:
121.6. If a spell or ability refers to a counter being "placed" on a permanent, it means putting a counter on that permanent while it's on the battlefield, or that permanent entering the battlefield with a counter on it as the result of a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
Whenever a -1/-1 counter is put on a creature while it's on the battlefield, or a creature enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it, [...]
And the blue trigger condition happens to match the very first ability i mentioned above. As a result, i believe it can be shut down by torpor orb, just as the hypothetical case could be shut down.
If you believe differently, then presumably your expansion of flourishing defenses' ability is different from mine, and i'm curious what that would be.
It has just occurred to me that this is not accurate, because the green and blue conditions are functionally different. Written this way, playing Etched Monstrosity (without considering Torpor Orb) would only allow Flourishing Defenses to trigger one time when the creature enters the battlefield, not the five times that it actually does trigger. Even if it were written to give X tokens for the number of counters, that is still only one trigger. That's not what the card does, so this substitution can't be accurate. In order for the card to trigger for each counter, as we know it does, it has to be triggered only by those counters and not by the creature entering the battlefield.
ok, then so it would be more accurate to write the text in blue as "a -1/-1 counter is placed on a creature as it enters the field" (which would trigger five times), but it's still triggering directly as a result of it entering the field which is specifically what Torpor Orb is written to shut down.
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Wit found in Rules Q&A
RPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?"
