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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 8:52AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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@Eldarelf: I think you're overapplying that Gatherer Ruling. The point is that it doesn't apply to abilities creating replacement effects. ie. Clone still copies something, Graft still places +1/+1 counters on the creature with Graft, etc.
Isn't that the very same thing I said seven minutes ago? (post #28)
The wording on Torpor Orb does not appear to be limited only to EtB triggers, rather triggers that occur as a result of "creatures entering the battlefield" which in my opinion would include the resulting trigger for FD
Isn't that the very same argument I've proven false fifteen minutes ago? (post #25)
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 8:54AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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As an aside: who thinks Torpor Orb would stop Pandemonium  from triggering when a Living Weapon artifact enters the field?
I do.
(But then, Pandemonium never triggers from an Equipment entering the Field...)
Of course, you were talking about the Germ creature: Pandemonium can't trigger even, because of Orb.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 8:54AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Dec 19, 2008
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@Eldarelf: I think you're overapplying that Gatherer Ruling. The point is that it doesn't apply to abilities creating replacement effects. ie. Clone still copies something, Graft still places +1/+1 counters on the creature with Graft, etc.
It's not saying anything about triggers triggering off of placing counters.
The wording on Torpor Orb does not appear to be limited only to EtB triggers, rather triggers that occur as a result of "creatures entering the battlefield" which in my opinion would include the resulting trigger for FD
Yeah, well I do usually end up on the wrong side of these things!  However, I am just reading it as it is worded... the Orb has zero affect on the Flourishing Defenses; are you going off of this, (from the Orb's ruling): "Torpor Orb stops a creature's own enters-the-battlefield triggered abilities as well as other triggered abilities that would trigger when a creature enters the battlefield." I don't see Flourishing Defenses caring about ETB, only that the counter(s) is placed or not, and in this case it is, rather 5 are.
"Belief matters more than truth. Every moment, belief in imaginary things alters lives while truth sits unnoticed and waits."...how does the removal of the hand-size rule further the rules? It's not complicated, and it makes people think about what they're doing and what they should play or discard to get their handsize down to 7, which also means they have to consider whether or not they want more mana available on their opponent's turn, which also means they have to actually think. Please do not advocate yet another dumbing down of the rules because there are people playing this game that cannot grasp even the most basic concepts.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 9:00AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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Isn't that the very same argument I've proven false fifteen minutes ago? (post #25)
I don't find your proof conclusive.
Oracle Text on Torpor Orb
Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.
Not Oracle text on Torpor Orb
Enter the battlefield triggers don't trigger from creatures entering the battlefield.
It's a subtle distinction, but there is a distinction: The latter applies only to EtB triggers whereas the former applies to all triggers that result from a creature entering the field.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 9:31AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Dec 19, 2008
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Isn't that the very same argument I've proven false fifteen minutes ago? (post #25)
I don't find your proof conclusive.
Oracle Text on Torpor Orb
Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.
Not Oracle text on Torpor Orb
Enter the battlefield triggers don't trigger from creatures entering the battlefield.
It's a subtle distinction, but there is a distinction: The latter applies only to EtB triggers whereas the former applies to all triggers that result from a creature entering the field.
OK, but even if that's true, Flourishing Defenses still isn't looking at when/how/if a creature entered the 'Field, it's only looking for -1/-1 counters, and the Orb still allows those counters to be placed. Am I oversimplifying it?
I reread it all; I still think the Orb only shuts off "triggered abilities that would trigger when a creature enters the battlefield..." (as worded) and Flourishing Defenses only triggers when the counter is placed, thus no affect from the Orb.
"Belief matters more than truth. Every moment, belief in imaginary things alters lives while truth sits unnoticed and waits."...how does the removal of the hand-size rule further the rules? It's not complicated, and it makes people think about what they're doing and what they should play or discard to get their handsize down to 7, which also means they have to consider whether or not they want more mana available on their opponent's turn, which also means they have to actually think. Please do not advocate yet another dumbing down of the rules because there are people playing this game that cannot grasp even the most basic concepts.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 9:32AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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Once again, it is not entering the Field that causes the trigger, it is the placing of counters.
Cards only do what they say they do:
Torpor Orb does not care about counters being placed on creatures. It cares only about creatures entering the Field.
2got4U is overextending the power of the Orb by pretending it ALSO applies to OTHER RESULTS from a critter entering the field.
700.1. Anything that happens in a game is an event. Multiple events may take place during the resolution of a spell or ability. The text of triggered abilities and replacement effects defines the event they’re looking for. One “happening” may be treated as a single event by one ability and as multiple events by another.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 9:34AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2008
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Isn't that the very same argument I've proven false fifteen minutes ago? (post #25)
I don't find your proof conclusive.
Oracle Text on Torpor Orb
Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.
Not Oracle text on Torpor Orb
Enter the battlefield triggers don't trigger from creatures entering the battlefield.
It's a subtle distinction, but there is a distinction: The latter applies only to EtB triggers whereas the former applies to all triggers that result from a creature entering the field.
It we accept the logic that FD's trigger is a "result" of a creature entering the battlefield as you say, then wouldn't that also apply to triggers such as Endangered Armodon  or Goblins of the Flarg  ? Those abilities would not have triggered if that 1/1 or Dwarf hadn't entered the battlefield, so by that logic they would also be a "result" of said creature entering the battlefield, would they not?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 9:43AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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Those two are state-based triggers that certainly result from a creature entering the field, but even if Torpor Orb stopped it the first time, they'd just trigger again so they aren't really triggering as a result of the event.
@Chaikov: right, the placing of counters happens as a consequence of the event that puts the creature on the field and normally, that trigger wouldn't even see that event except for the exception in the CompRules that Cyphern cited earlier which specifically allows that trigger to see counters placed as part of the event of the creature entering the field, but Torpor Orb specifically says that abilities don't trigger from creatures entering the field so the placement of the counter trigger would be likewise stopped.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 9:56AM
#39
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2008
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Those two are state-based triggers that certainly result from a creature entering the field, but even if Torpor Orb stopped it the first time, they'd just trigger again so they aren't really triggering as a result of the event.
So you're saying it would prevent the ability from triggering the first time, but not any subsequent time?
At what point does the game state go from being a result of a creature entering the battlefield to not being a result of that event?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 10:02AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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Those two are state-based triggers that certainly result from a creature entering the field, but even if Torpor Orb stopped it the first time, they'd just trigger again so they aren't really triggering as a result of the event.
I don't find your proof conclusive.
603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They’ll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren’t the same as state-based actions.) A state-triggered ability doesn’t trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack. Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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