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1 year ago ::
Jan 02, 2012 - 10:37AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2011
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Hello, I controll Torpor Orb  and Flourishing Defenses  . An Etched Monstrosity  enters the battlefield. Does it cause the ability of the Defenses to trigger ?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 02, 2012 - 10:40AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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Yes, I think.
From the Orb itself:
"Abilities that create replacement effects, such as a permanent entering the battlefield tapped or with counters on it, are unaffected."
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Sounds familiar?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 02, 2012 - 10:44AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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I controll Torpor Orb and Flourishing Defenses . An Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield. Does it cause the ability of the Defenses to trigger ?
Oooh.... interesting. I think the answer is "no", but i'm not actually sure.
Flourishing defense's trigger condition includes both a counter being placed on a permanent while its on the battlefield, and a permanent entering the battlefield with a counter. But torpor orb says that creatures entering the battlefield can't trigger abilities, and i would think this includes creatures entering the battlefield with counters.
121.6. If a spell or ability refers to a counter being "placed" on a permanent, it means putting a counter on that permanent while it's on the battlefield, or that permanent entering the battlefield with a counter on it as the result of a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
EDIT: to be clear, etched monstrosity definitely enters the battlefield with counters. The only part i'm unsure of is whether flourishing defenses triggers as a result.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 02, 2012 - 10:44AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2011
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None of those abilities trigger based on a creature entering the battlefield. The Monstrosity has no triggered abilities, so the Orb has no effect there. The Defenses triggers on the counters being put on the creature, not the creature entering the battlefield (even though placing the counters happens to be a side effect of that and happens at the same time).
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1 year ago ::
Jan 02, 2012 - 10:59AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2005
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None of those abilities trigger based on a creature entering the battlefield. The Monstrosity has no triggered abilities, so the Orb has no effect there. The Defenses triggers on the counters being put on the creature, not the creature entering the battlefield (even though placing the counters happens to be a side effect of that and happens at the same time).
This would be my assumption too. The counters are being placed on him as he enters the battlefield, but the act of entering itself isn't actually triggering anything.
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite."I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room." It's my sig in a box
Show
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
Funny story:
InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game.
I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul:
Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?"
Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy."
Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb."
Me: "*Sigh*. Okay."
I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board.
Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious. 
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol. 
I have the same problem with women.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
Show
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now.
O' Jesus
Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle.
Amen.
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears  would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic  , giving you time to set up your silly  combo  . Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills 
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 02, 2012 - 11:02AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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None of those abilities trigger based on a creature entering the battlefield. The Monstrosity has no triggered abilities, so the Orb has no effect there. The Defenses triggers on the counters being put on the creature, not the creature entering the battlefield (even though placing the counters happens to be a side effect of that and happens at the same time).
This would be my assumption too. The counters are being placed on him as he enters the battlefield, but the act of entering itself isn't actually triggering anything.
In the absence of torpor orb, etched monstrosity will trigger flourishing defenses.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 02, 2012 - 11:06AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2011
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The rulings on the gatherer page for Flourishing Defenses also state that creatures entering the battlefied with counters will trigger it.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 02, 2012 - 11:06AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2005
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None of those abilities trigger based on a creature entering the battlefield. The Monstrosity has no triggered abilities, so the Orb has no effect there. The Defenses triggers on the counters being put on the creature, not the creature entering the battlefield (even though placing the counters happens to be a side effect of that and happens at the same time).
This would be my assumption too. The counters are being placed on him as he enters the battlefield, but the act of entering itself isn't actually triggering anything.
In the absence of torpor orb, etched monstrosity will trigger flourishing defenses.
Well yeah, but not because he's entering the battlefield. That just happens to be when the counters are being placed on him.
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite."I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room." It's my sig in a box
Show
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
Funny story:
InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game.
I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul:
Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?"
Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy."
Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb."
Me: "*Sigh*. Okay."
I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board.
Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
Show
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now.
O' Jesus
Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle.
Amen.
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic , giving you time to set up your silly combo . Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 02, 2012 - 2:16PM
#9
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None of those abilities trigger based on a creature entering the battlefield. The Monstrosity has no triggered abilities, so the Orb has no effect there. The Defenses triggers on the counters being put on the creature, not the creature entering the battlefield (even though placing the counters happens to be a side effect of that and happens at the same time).
This would be my assumption too. The counters are being placed on him as he enters the battlefield, but the act of entering itself isn't actually triggering anything.
In the absence of torpor orb, etched monstrosity will trigger flourishing defenses.
Well yeah, but not because he's entering the battlefield. That just happens to be when the counters are being placed on him.
The ability "Whenever a -1/-1 counter is placed on a creature" has a special exception in the rules: rule 121.6, which cyphern quoted. This is the only reason the ability triggers when Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield. For example, Diregraf Ghoul  entering the battlefield would not trigger the ability "Whenever a creature becomes tapped". I think because of this exception, the ability should be considered "Whenever a -1/-1 counter is placed on a creature or a creature enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it" for the purposes of Torpor Orb . It will not trigger for the same reason Amulet of Vigor  will not trigger when Torpor Orb is active.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 02, 2012 - 3:45PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2011
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I think because of this exception, the ability should be considered "Whenever a -1/-1 counter is placed on a creature or a creature enters the battlefield with a counter on it" for the purposes of Torpor Orb . It will not trigger for the same reason Amulet of Vigor will not trigger when Torpor Orb is active.
Amulet of Vigor won't trigger because it specifically refers to permanents entering the battlefield, which by definition includes creatures. Flourishing Defenses triggers with Etched Monstrosity not because a creature is entering the battlefield, but because those counters are being placed on it. I think it's more accurate to think of the creature and counters entering the battlefield simultaneously, but being two distinct events that can set off two distinct types of triggers. The fact that they happened to enter the battlefield at the same time is irrelevant.
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you loads
