So I've been working on idea's for a new deck... and I'd like to try a discard deck in black/red (my two fave mono-deck colours) and I'm torn between a few different idea's. I'm unsure whether to try and run a creature focused deck (specter's, shockers etc.) with lots of removal and enchantments, or whether to run minimal efficient creatures and lots of spells to screw as many opponents as possible. Help!
The more I think about it, the best one of the lot for a quick group kill would be Burning Inquiry . Only it could kill my hand also, unless I pack my hand full of recurring cards, so I've been looking at cards like Raven's Crime and Rekindled Flame . I know Rekindled flame is expensive for a burn, but being able to toss it, knowing it'll come back?!?! Sounds enticing!
I'm a big fan of the creaturelight/less decks when it comes to discard. It lets you field cards like Ensnaring Bridge and Glacial Chasm which make you all but immortal while you quickly drain everyone to 0.
One thing that I'll tell you right now is that Red doesn't pull its weight in the deck. There's basically no reason to run it. Every Red card that you've listed is either too slow, weak, vulnerable, or conditional to really be of any use. I would keep the deck mono-Black. It's just plain better.
I'm thinking something like this. The idea here is to lock people at 0 cards so that Noetic Scales and Ensnaring Bridge lock creatures out of the game. We accomplish this by pairing solid mass discard (Unnerve + Delirium Skeins ) with solid constant discard (Necrogen Mists + Gibbering Descent ). From there we slowly with the game via Wheel of Torture + Gibbering Descent . Once we're Hellbent, Gibbering Descent removes Glacial Chasm 's upkeep cost, so we become immune to damage. Smallpox is there because it acts as our early game defense against creatures, but also really slows everyone down and forces discards. Beseech the Queen is a solid tutor that will bring some much needed consistency to the deck. Innocent Blood is mostly there to shore up our early game, since that's when we're the most vulnerable. It's cheap and it gets the job done. We want these cheap spells in here so that when we do throw out a Bridge + Mists/Skeins we basically end the game on the spot. We want to stay alive and empty our hand, so Innocent Blood does quite a bit of work in that respect.
If nothing else, you need to keep in mind that multiplayer is all about global effects and defense. Cards like Blightning and Augur of Skulls are no good because they only affect one opponent. Specters such as Abyssal Specter are bad for similar reasons. Liliana's Spcter and Scythe Specter aren't bad though, but again, it's because they have global effects. I would avoid anything that doesn't affect each opponent, because it's probably not going to be very useful otherwise. You're going to have to work overtime when it comes to protecting yourself. Discard decks draw hate, so you really can't go in there without a solid gameplan to keep yourself alive. A few small creatures will not protect you, people can still easily gang up on you and take you out. My deck has 8 early game mass removal spells (Smallpox + Innocent Blood ) and 6 cards that outright prevent creature beats (Ensnaring Bridge + Noetic Scales ) for a reason. Play a lot of defense or die. What this also means is that your deckspace is limited. Every card has to count. If something is too weak or slow then it really can't stay.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706
My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879
My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211
My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Tich is the man when it comes to black and discard. The only thing that I might change is Gibbering Descent to Bloodchief Ascension . Just because you can get the bloodchief out early before you start making everyone discard. I'm sure if i am wrong on this asumption Tich will let us know.
I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.
Meh, there's no one perfect deck, so there's no right or wrong way to go about building this one. That being said, I'm not that big of a fan of adding Ascension to my deck. Bloodchief Ascension is, in many ways, a bad Megrim . You can throw one out early, sure, but that doesn't actually do anything since it needs time and energy to activate. What these decks tend to lack are good, fast ways to get it up and running.
Also, as with Megrim , the card is clunky when you eventually lock people at 0 cards. It's much harder to get things binned at that point. You're basically relying on removal. That's not horrible, but it's not a consistent 3 damage like Wheel of Torture is or anything.
Gibbering Descent also does a lot for this deck. First of all, it's a constant discard engine that also acts as a win condition. No, 1 damage per turn isn't a lot, but it isn't nothing either. That being said, removing Descent removes 2 of the constant discard engines in this deck, which leaves you with only the 4 Mists. If you don't draw one/it gets destroyed, that can leave you in a fairly hopeless situation at times. This is a deck that strives for consistency, and in order to get that we need redundancy. I don't like cutting constant discard outlets when the deck only has 6 and it really needs to keep one in play at all times.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I basically assign 0 value to the whole Descent + Chasm combo since it's not a very consistent or reliable part of the deck's overall strategy. That's not a factor at all when it comes to taking Descent's deck slots into consideration.
Finally, going back to what I said earlier, I'm just not convinced that the card is strong enough in this style of deck (the style of deck that I built that is). It's not a guaranteed win condition like Wheel of Torture is, it doesn't help lock people at 0 cards, it doesn't protect you, it can't easily be activated by my own efforts, etc. It's very clunky and situational. It's a fine card, but it doesn't bring much to my particular deck.
All this to say that I would personally not cut Descents in favor of something like B.Ascension. So, take that for whatever it's worth. That being said, I'm not opposed to cutting Descents in generals (and eve nthe Chasm too at that point), as long as it was to replace them with something like Bottomless Pit . The deck does want a fair number of constant dicard outlets, much moreso than it wants mass discard cards such as Unnerve and Delirium Skeins. You could easily build this deck - Descents, Chasm, Skeins and maybe shave some of the removal and add some Bottomless Pit s and then some other cheap, useful spells. Not opposed to that at all. You reall do want quite a few constant discard engines though. They're fairly vital to this deck's success.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706
My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879
My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211
My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
And of course you could just add some madness cards. Originally, the deck was B/R (mainly for reckless wurm ) but I kind of joined the dark side, everything else just seemed useless.
HOW TO AUTOCARD! When posting in a text box, type [c]Plains[/c] to make your post showPlains . Are you making a casual mill deck? Please read.Show
Control is the key of a mill deck. You should free up your mana as much as possible so that you can respond to whatever your opponent is doing. Having some way to remove threats, both real and percieved, is necessary to survival. Real threats are those that are already on the field, and are something a simple unsummon or doom blade can remove. Percieved threats are those that aren't on the field, something a simple duress or counterspell can deal with. Controlling the board will allow your mill deck to continuously perform, if you use permanent style mill, that is.
One-Shot Mill spells are something you should avoid. You can toss tome scour s at your opponent until your hand runs out, but that isn't going to be enough to mill them to death. With 1-shot mill spells, like tome scour , you have to treat them like burn spells. Therefore, the only "good" 1-shot mill spells are sanity grinding (in the right deck) and mind funeral . Try to find more permanent styles of milling, like memory erosion , hedron crab , and curse of the bloody tome , so that you don't have to waste your mana each turn doing something that those permanents can do with a single mana/turn investment. Keeping your mana open allows you to respond with control elements.
Traumatize Rant. Traumatize is a terrible card for a multitude of reasons. First, it costs 5 to cast, which is a large investment for a mill deck. Milling half a library sounds neat, but if you do the math, it really isn't that much. An average 60 card deck starts with drawing 7 cards. Then, barring any draw spells on their end, or ramp on yours, 5 turns will go by, where they draw 5 more cards, leaving 48 in the deck. Unless they had a deck with more than 60 cards, or you ramped it out, the most you'll ever mill with a single Traumatize on turn 5 is 24 cards. That's not too shabby, but hang on, there's more! If they drew any additional cards or if they were milled before turn 5, that number will be much lower. In addition, any more Traumatize's you draw will only mill less and less as the game goes on...which is the point of a mill deck. My whole point on Traumatize is the it is NOT worth the 5 mana investment, not even with haunting echoes . You can mill more than 24 before turn 5...which you can then cast the echoes.
If you look at a mill deck like a burn deck, you'll notice that it takes longer to win with mill than with burn. For example, lightning bolt costs 1 and does 3 out of the 20 damage needed to win (barring any lifegain or damage prevention). For mill, that same investment of 1 would have to mill 9 cards out of an average 60 card deck to be the equivilent of lightning bolt . The problem is that there is no mill card that can do that...except hedron crab , over a period of time. The initial investment of 1 will pay off in 3 more land drops to make the crab equal to a bolt. However, the crab nets you more mill beyond those 3 land drops, making it better as the game draws on. Other cards, like curse of the bloody tome , are excellent ways of milling an opponent because the initial investment of is all you have to pay in order to put your opponent on a clock. All you have to do is stay alive, which is the true goal of a mill strategy.
There are other ideas for mill decks that are specific to certain types of strategies. Combo mill decks can mill an entire player's library out from under them. Secondary mill strategies are usually tied to another strategy, like drowner of secrets in a merfolk deck, or halimar excavator in an ally deck. Milling can be done in certain decks that are able to ramp out enough mana to make use of the higher costing mill spells, like using 16 x post to pay for X on sands of delirium or for ambassador laquatus . Multiplayer mill decks are even tougher to build, but can be done. Being a slower environment[/c], it is easier to ramp in multiplayer, allowing for big X spells, like mind grind , to be useful. Consuming aberration is another star player. The more straightforward strategy is to use mesmeric orb and dreamborn muse while being the only deck at the table that can deal with it . There are always new strategies coming out with each new set, so check gatherer for any new mill cards that you find to be the most fun for you!
Now you can say that you haven't fallen into the trap that most new players fall into when they build their first mill deck!
: Order, Law, Faith. : Knowledge, Artifice, Control. : Corruption, Death, Self-Interest. : Freedom, Destruction, Victory. : Nature, Growth, Life. : Progressive, but too controlling. : Focused, but short sighted. : Skilled, but hypocritical. : Unified, but without a sense of self. : Cunning, but devious. : Inquisitive, but incautious. : Rational, but impulsive. : Powerful, but spiteful. : Instinctive, but selfish. : Fearless, but reckless.
Whoa. Just whoa. Those cards are evil - Tich that deck of yours would be horribly frustrating to play against. Glorious! Your deck there Tich, is it more focused on a large playing group? I noticed you're not running Dark Ritual or Cabal Coffers like most MBC I've seen.. why? And also, you're not running Quest for the Nihil Stone or Painful Quandary . I would have thought it would be a perfect fit for this deck, as you're not letting them get a card in hand. And regarding Megrim -type cards, I've seen cards like Temple Bell used by some people - is that worth using to get a card after gibbering/mist has done their thing, so you can then make your opponent discard something?
My group is fairly small - 4 players most the time, and most of us play aggro strategies, ways to cheat swarms of tokens or reanimate some crazy beater. None of us play big money cards, and we have only a few planeswalkers between us - pretty casual stuff.
Token swarms, weenie aggro and Bloodchief Ascension were the main reason I was looking at going red so I could sweep the field with Volcanic Fallout early to get rid of those lords and utility-creatures, that and Crosis, the Purger ! Reanimation is my main enemy with discard I'm guessing?......Gruesome Encore worth a few slots?
I understand the Necrogen Mists mechanic - but I'm not too sure of Gibbering Descent . So when one of these is in play, that player drops a card, loses one life, and if their hand is empty, they can't untap all their critters and lands? Is that how it works?
To be honest, my initial idea seems pretty different from you Tich - your deck is BRUTAL! - I was thinking of using cards like Geth's Grimoire to get cards in hand and to keep card advantage. With lots of cards in hand, I'd have more chance of getting what I need, and more lands to feed the Raven's Crime . I know this tactic may be a little slow (i have 4x Dark Ritual ), but when my playing group is only 4 players, is it worth persuing?
To opponents, Gibbering Descent is just plain old discard and life loss. It's only you who skips your upkeep, which means as long as you keep your hand empty you get to dodge things like Necrogen Mists , Gibbering Descent itself and, as Tich pointed out, paying upkeep on Glacial Chasm . Of course it'll be hard to keep your own hand empty with Geth's Grimoire refilling it, unless you have some kind of free discard outlet.
Your deck there Tich, is it more focused on a large playing group?
To a fault. When I build a multiplayer deck, I build it to beat 50 opponents. I don't like leaving anything to chance. Everything in my deck will forever and always be a global effect for that reason.
Dark Ritual doesn't usually do enough for the deck. We're not powering out a combo here, we're going for a slow, grindy win. A bit of speed here and there doesn't actually make us win noticeably faster. Cabal Coffers was omitted for various reasons. First of all, it's $8.00 a copy. Now, I bought 4 back when Torment was first released, and I couldn't be happier about it. Still, it's a very narrow card since it's only good in MBC decks, and so a lot of people won't want to shell out for them (which is completely reasonable). Furthermore, the card doesn't actually work all that well unless you pair it with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth , which is like a $20.00 card. Again, it has a very narrow use. Finally, and most importantly, it doesn't actually bring anything to this deck. Keep in mind that its cards basically top out at 4 mana (Gibbering Descent is very often discarded and Madnessed out via Necrogen Mists ), and it probably isn't going to be playing multiple spells per turn. It doesn't have any X spells like Exsanguinate either. Also, drawing 3 Swamps is fine, but drawing 2x Coffers and 1x Swamp will straight up lose you the game at times. At the end of the day Coffers can screw you out of the game, we have no way to actually abuse them, and they cost a lot of money. Not ideal.
And also, you're not running Quest for the Nihil Stone or Painful Quandary . I would have thought it would be a perfect fit for this deck, as you're not letting them get a card in hand. And regarding Megrim -type cards, I've seen cards like Temple Bell used by some people - is that worth using to get a card after gibbering/mist has done their thing, so you can then make your opponent discard something?
Quest for the Nihil Stone is fine, and you can play it if you want. Like I said, there's no perfect deck, so feel free to change it to suit your fancy. I don't like it as much as I like Wheel of Torture since WoT has 0 setup time, whereas the Quest is only truly amazing in you manage to play it in the first few turns. If you topdeck it lategame then it doesn't always do a whole heck of a lot. Painful Quandary is fine but it's slow. Again, you can use it if you really want to, just keep in mind that it doesn't always do what you want it to. It does not force discards. People can sit there and do nothing until they draw into Naturalize or whatever. Cards like Mists and Descent force discards every turn, and Descent even forces lifeloss every turn. It is always doing something, whereas Quandary can sometimes do nothing. As far as Megrim goes, this stems back to what I said about "cards shouldn't be used if they're too narrow" (in my opinion anyways). Temple Bell is a very narrow card that goes against what we're trying to do until we've already won (for all intents and purposes). If you wanted to abuse Megrim + Liliana's Caress , you'd be much better off using Windfall , Memory Jar , Magus of the Jar , Urza's Guilt , etc. The deck should be based around making people draw then discard cards. It's just not a good card in dedicated discard decks as far as I'm concerned.
My group is fairly small - 4 players most the time, and most of us play aggro strategies, ways to cheat swarms of tokens or reanimate some crazy beater. None of us play big money cards, and we have only a few planeswalkers between us - pretty casual stuff.
Token swarms, weenie aggro and Bloodchief Ascension were the main reason I was looking at going red so I could sweep the field with Volcanic Fallout early to get rid of those lords and utility-creatures, that and Crosis, the Purger !
Volcanic Fallout is a double Red card which makes it awkward to play on turn 3. Now, compare that to Massacre , which is often a free board wipe. No, it doesn't ping players for 2, but it also doesn't eat your turn and you'll never find yourself without the right mana to cast it.
Reanimation is my main enemy with discard I'm guessing?......Gruesome Encore worth a few slots?
Meh, reanimation isn't very scary. There's a reason why we have 8 sacrifice effects at 1-2 mana and then Neotic Scales + Ensnaring Bridge . No creatures really scare you. Gruesome Encore seems horrible though. Animate Dead , for example, costs less mana and lets you keep the creature. Necromancy seems like it's almost strictly better too. Still, reanimation works very poorly in my deck since it just hates on creatures. Like, don't forget that Bridge + Scales + I.Blood + S.Pox affects you too. My deck is creatureless for a very good reason.
Now, if this about handling revival targets in general, you could do much better. Planar Void and Leyline of the Void are very strong multiplayer cards in general, and are especially strong in Discard decks. I have no qualms fielding them when people bust out their graveyard based strategies. Furthermore, a cool land to consider is Bojuka Bog . It ETBT, which isn't ideal (you might have to cut the Hollows), but it's pretty sexy when it comes to hating on graveyard-based play. It takes up 0 spell slots but pretty does the same thing that you want Gruesome Encore to do (minus your trivial free attack). That's easily a much stronger consideration.
I understand the Necrogen Mists mechanic - but I'm not too sure of Gibbering Descent . So when one of these is in play, that player drops a card, loses one life, and if their hand is empty, they can't untap all their critters and lands? Is that how it works?
No. For your opponents, this card simply forces them to discard a card and lose a life every turn on their upkeep. Period. For you, it' slightly more complicated. Remember, the 3 initial phases of a player's turn (in order) are: untap, upkeep, draw. So, at the start of your turn you will always untap your permanents as per normal, but if you have 0 cards in hand then you will skip your upkeep step. Since that's the step where Gibbering Descent forces you to discard a card and lose a life, you won't wind up doing either. You then get to draw your card, which is something that you'll want to play right away in order to keep yourself Hellbent (this deck's mana curve is intentionally kept low).
To be honest, my initial idea seems pretty different from you Tich - your deck is BRUTAL! - I was thinking of using cards like Geth's Grimoire to get cards in hand and to keep card advantage. With lots of cards in hand, I'd have more chance of getting what I need, and more lands to feed the Raven's Crime . I know this tactic may be a little slow (i have 4x Dark Ritual ), but when my playing group is only 4 players, is it worth persuing?
You had me at Geth's Grimoire but lost me at Raven's Crime and Dark Ritual . Geth's Grimoire is fine, but you really have to build around it. Like, pair it with Words of Waste or something that will forever and always lock people at 0 cards while drawing you a ton of them. From there you can Mutilate or whatever every turn to keep the field clear, and build up to massive Exsanguinate s and Sickening Dreams to finish everyone off. Your overall strategy isn't worth pursuing (in my mind) because it isn't a true multiplayer strategy. Again, I may be biased because I will always treat multiplayer as though I'm playing against 100 people, but I still can't bring myself to say "yes, Raven's Crime is a good card" or anything. I personally wouldn't touch it with a 50 foot pole. Again, this is just my opinion, and you're absolutely free to do whatever you want. I just take multiplayer very seriously, and I'm always trying to figure out the best ways to win. Raven's Crime is never going to lock all of your opponents at 0 cards. It's always going to need a lot of help if it wants to do anything. Something like Unnerve doesn't.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706
My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879
My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211
My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Wow! Great reply! Thanks for the time and effort Tich. I really do see just how nasty your deck is, hate to be on the receiving end of it! Can you forgive a noob question here? Is it possible for your deck to win if someone uses Surgical Extraction etc. on your Wheel of Torture or Ensnaring Bridge ? One of the fella's I play with has some Back to Nature - how do you get around enchantment hate or blue counter? What are your thoughts of Dash Hopes as a safety?
Despite how awesome your deck looks, I'd like to try a different tack cos I'm a bonehead. .....although I will definitely borrow some pointers ;D
I hear what you're saying re: Raven's Crime ... I'll drop it, and try to build a deck around the strengths of Geth's Grimiore .
Thanks for suggesting Words of Waste . Could you please explain exactly how it works?
So if I pay one, and play a Burning Inquiry for example, we all draw three. Now, does that mean that when Words of Waste triggers immediately after the draw, all opposition discard 1 card (not 3, is that right?) and then the second part of the Inquiry fires and players random discard 3. So net gain is everyone discards 1, apart from me? And with Geth I get to draw again.....
I'm liking Sign in Blood here with this, even though it costs me 2 life, it means global discard x2 for only BB looks attractive. Unnerve & Syphon Mind are auto inclusions. I'm guessing Necrogen Mists will work pretty well with the grimoire, as I'll get to draw anytime they don't play what they have.
Would Words of Waste work with Temple Bell , in that when everyone draws, the Waste triggers, making everyone then discard, and then I draw again c/o Grimoire? Is that right?
Burning Inquiry combined with a Liliana's Caress wouldn't be too shabby with Words of Waste I'm guessin. I really like the idea of keeping the opposition chumps pinned to 0 cards in hand. To be honest I'm liking the idea of Bloodchief Ascension more than a Megrim type card, as it helps me to punish the opposition more than Liliana's Caress can....and gain life at the same time.
BUT..... Defence in your deck is your combo with Ensnaring Bridge , which Geth's Grimoire kills straight up. So I'm gonna need some kill power. I like Innocent Blood combined with a sweeper to get rid of weenies. The Grimoire should help draw some, but should I consider putting in some Rotting Rats and Liliana's Specter for chump blocking and once they've done their part use my sweepers or visa-versa? I'm guessing I may be end up relying on other players attacking each other to activate my Bloodchief Ascension .... hmmm.
You know, I've wondered about the merits of quietly running a playset of Demigod of Revenge in the background in the builds of these decks - you don't care about discarding them (at least not the first three), and if someone piffs the Bridge , or you somehow get up to a five-card hand, you have the chance to insta-gib somebody when you draw Demigod #4. Is it optimal? Probably not. Is it fun? Heck yes!
Anyway, back from dreamland... I also run Null Brooch in these decks. Your hand is already empty most of the time, so the Brooch basically reads ", : Counter target solution your opponent thought they had for your lock". With a single Brooch on the table, your opponents are either ganging up on you to remove the Bridge / Wheel of Torture / Threat du jour, or they're waiting for someone to draw a creature-based solution like Viridian Shaman or Woodfall Primus . While you're stripping their hands each turn regardless.
madness deck. 
: Order, Law, Faith.
: Knowledge, Artifice, Control.
: Freedom, Destruction, Victory.
: Nature, Growth, Life.
Keino
=100 Class: 
x 236 Diety: 
125/200 
=2x
dmg/
=4
dmg)
: Counter target solution your opponent thought they had for your lock". With a single Brooch on the table, your opponents are either ganging up on you to remove the Bridge / 