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Switch to Forum Live View 12/20/2011 Feature: "December 20 2011 DCI Banned & Restricted List Announcement"
1 year ago  ::  Dec 20, 2011 - 4:24AM #41
Qilong
Date Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 2,226
Declaimer: I do not, and won't, play Modern. I find the format rather janky (but I have played it). That said, the follow is true:

Of all the cards banned in Modern, there is a ridiculous number of them that are common. The total cost for a single of each comes up to about $68 (US), and thus a playset just over $300 (US). Over half the cost of this is borne by one card, Jace, the Mind Sculptor ($39 or 57%), while Bitterblossom comprises a not-insignificant portion of the remainder ($6 or 20%), and the rest are covered by cards at $4 to $1, to a ridiculous spread of cards like Seat of the Synod or Ponder which come out at less than $.25 (US).

10 cards are common (the artifact lands excluding Darksteel Citadel [5], Ponder , Preordain , Cloudpost , Rite of Flame , and Wild Nacatl );
6 cards are uncommon (equipment, Skullclamp and Sword of the Meek , Mental Misttep , Dread Return , perennial red-headed stepchild Sensei's Divining Top , and now Punishing Fire );
10 cards are rare ( Chrome Mox and Dark Depths , costless cards Ancestral Vision and Hypergenesis , Blazing Shoal , Glimpse of Nature and Golgari Grave-Troll , Green Sun's Zenith , Bitterblossom [only enchantment on the list], and Stoneforge Mystic );
and, of course, 1 mythic rare ( Jace, the Mind Sculptor ).

The distribution of these cards tells me that the concerned cards do not fall into particular rarities, but that a lot of them are cheap, effective, and accessible enablers and filters, but not necessarily cards that do anything. The most expensive card to drop, in terms of mana, is Jace, while all others can essentially come down for 2, 1 or even 0. This suggests that enablers, to be effective, must be costed very cheap, but that this leads to their abusiveness. It should be considered that when cards work really well with other cards, they are typically very, very cheap and can be found to slide under the radar, implying that designers and developers, in the future, should be wary of such cards that do these things, ARE card advantage, or revise card quality.

Otherwise, this list will continue to grow until the next problem card arises, and it will likely pick up a card printed even before Zendikar. You may find yourselves realizing that every banning causes another monster to rise, and that there may never be a "healthy format" when such a giant card pool is present without shooting yourselves in the foot.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 20, 2011 - 4:30AM #42
Robyrt
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2009
Posts: 17
Punishing Fire should definitely have been banned, but I think Nacatl was unnecessary once that specter was lifted. Over-banning is probably better than under-banning right now, but Wizards should seriously consider starting to un-ban cards once the metagame becomes more healthy. The situation right now feels too uncertain for people to really commit to the format, but the overall direction is positive. 
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 20, 2011 - 5:06AM #43
WarpGhost
Date Joined: Dec 19, 2010
Posts: 24
Glad Wizards still aren't afraid to shape Modern to a vision. Personally would have gone after Grove rather than Punishing Fire as I think that keeps more design space open, but getting rid of the stupid, repressive combo is what really matters. Happy to see Nacatl go too, it is kind of embarressing that cards like it and Blazing Shoal have to get banned, but it's the only way to open up the format.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 20, 2011 - 5:14AM #44
12three45
Date Joined: Jun 2, 2010
Posts: 261

Dec 20, 2011 -- 4:24AM, Qilong wrote:

Declaimer: I do not, and won't, play Modern. I find the format rather janky (but I have played it). That said, the follow is true:

Of all the cards banned in Modern, there is a ridiculous number of them that are common. The total cost for a single of each comes up to about $68 (US), and thus a playset just over $300 (US). Over half the cost of this is borne by one card, Jace, the Mind Sculptor ($39 or 57%), while Bitterblossom comprises a not-insignificant portion of the remainder ($6 or 20%), and the rest are covered by cards at $4 to $1, to a ridiculous spread of cards like Seat of the Synod or Ponder which come out at less than $.25 (US).

10 cards are common (the artifact lands excluding Darksteel Citadel [5], Ponder , Preordain , Cloudpost , Rite of Flame , and Wild Nacatl );
6 cards are uncommon (equipment, Skullclamp and Sword of the Meek , Mental Misttep , Dread Return , perennial red-headed stepchild Sensei's Divining Top , and now Punishing Fire );
10 cards are rare ( Chrome Mox and Dark Depths , costless cards Ancestral Vision and Hypergenesis , Blazing Shoal , Glimpse of Nature and Golgari Grave-Troll , Green Sun's Zenith , Bitterblossom [only enchantment on the list], and Stoneforge Mystic );
and, of course, 1 mythic rare ( Jace, the Mind Sculptor ).

The distribution of these cards tells me that the concerned cards do not fall into particular rarities, but that a lot of them are cheap, effective, and accessible enablers and filters, but not necessarily cards that do anything. The most expensive card to drop, in terms of mana, is Jace, while all others can essentially come down for 2, 1 or even 0. This suggests that enablers, to be effective, must be costed very cheap, but that this leads to their abusiveness. It should be considered that when cards work really well with other cards, they are typically very, very cheap and can be found to slide under the radar, implying that designers and developers, in the future, should be wary of such cards that do these things, ARE card advantage, or revise card quality.

Otherwise, this list will continue to grow until the next problem card arises, and it will likely pick up a card printed even before Zendikar. You may find yourselves realizing that every banning causes another monster to rise, and that there may never be a "healthy format" when such a giant card pool is present without shooting yourselves in the foot.





Unlike Legacy which has cards from when Magic was no fun like wasteland and force of will, Modern lacks any sort of interaction with lands and the first turn. These bannings were obvious. There is no good answer to lands in modern-and there never will be-so cards like Punishing Fire get banned since the wasteland of the format is the ban hammer. Anything fast gets banned due to their turn 4 rule and the lack of force and mental mistep-which could fill that role.

My only complaint about this announcement is timing. The PTQ season is just around the corner and it got changed officially on short notice. They could have done right by the PTQ player base and let them know as soon as they knew this was going to happen to give players more time to adapt. But who cares about them anyway right?       

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1 year ago  ::  Dec 20, 2011 - 5:15AM #45
Mobius_XI
Date Joined: Jun 1, 2008
Posts: 493
Really glad they are wielding their banhammer with joy. Once they get everything to where they like it, they will slowly begin to unban cards to allow more diverse decks to flourish. All the whiners will then be able to come back into the format, unless they remain stubborn for no reason.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 20, 2011 - 5:43AM #46
JustTerrorIt
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2008
Posts: 9,141
This pretty much seals the deal for me. I will never play Modern. There are simply too many cards that are banned. I can't get a pile of cards and sort through them and come up with something like I normally would if I also have to reference an extensive banned list that I have to check every time I think a card just might be decent.

Wild Nacatl? Seriously? You guys remember when there was so much hoopla about banning Path to Exile ? So much so that someone even had the username BANPATHTOEXILE? Now, these current bannings and a few earlier ones leave me clueless as to why they didn't do it.

Punishing Fire? I'm so disgusted.
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Restarting Quotes Block Show

May 29, 2012 -- 9:20AM, Mata_Hari wrote:

May 29, 2012 -- 9:13AM, febbstalicious42 wrote:

Disregard women acquire chase rares.

There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.


Jun 9, 2012 -- 1:54PM, bay_falconer wrote:

Jun 7, 2012 -- 11:54AM, Bubasti wrote:

How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?



You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.


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1 year ago  ::  Dec 20, 2011 - 6:04AM #47
TobyornotToby
Date Joined: Mar 7, 2006
Posts: 2,324

Dec 20, 2011 -- 5:43AM, JustTerrorIt wrote:

This pretty much seals the deal for me. I will never play Modern. There are simply too many cards that are banned. I can't get a pile of cards and sort through them and come up with something like I normally would if I also have to reference an extensive banned list that I have to check every time I think a card just might be decent.




Meaning you'll never play any non-rotating formats like Commander, Legacy and Vintage. Such formats will have a long banlist.

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1 year ago  ::  Dec 20, 2011 - 6:07AM #48
goblinrecruiter
Date Joined: Mar 25, 2005
Posts: 483

Dec 20, 2011 -- 3:51AM, fractal wrote:

Since it's kind of related, how about the changes to the (tournament) rules?

www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards...


In particular, see rule 1.4 - now all "beneficial" triggers are optional, at least in Competitive and Professional tournaments, including lifegain (from Transcendence ?) and card draw (from Mind Unbound with only a few cards left in your library?).  Maybe this rule is a good thing, but if so, shouldn't it be added to the Comprehensive Rules, and not just hidden away in the Infraction Procedure Guide?


A scary thought is that the rule is only intended to apply to high level tournaments.  If this is so, players at FNM won't be allowed to copy the plays they read about in Pro Tour coverage.  At that point, why even have a Pro Tour?



I never liked the rule that Wishes worked differently in casual and competitive play, and this is a hundred times worse.  In addition to all of the issues that you raised, the rule is poorly written.  For example, one of the possible effects for an optional ability is "Puts +x/+x counters, or counters linked to a beneficial effect, on a permanent you control."  What on earth is a "counter linked to a beneficial effect"?  Are triggered abilities that add charge counters to one of your artifacts optional?  Lots of effects care about charge counters, and most of them would usually be considered beneficial, but some, like Jinxed Choker , would not.  The rules don't define "beneficial effect", let alone "counter linked to a beneficial effect".

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1 year ago  ::  Dec 20, 2011 - 6:54AM #49
chaos_noise
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2010
Posts: 16
Huh, I was expecting Islands to be banned in Legacy before you guys would ban a vanilla 1/1 in modern.  All this messing with the format makes me glad I'm not invested in it.

Maybe this is all a plot to make Goblin Guide better since it's the GP promo this coming year.  It's also the cheapest promo they've done at a GP to my knowledge.  This banning shall increase it's value!!!  ....Or maybe not.  Tongue Out
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 20, 2011 - 7:04AM #50
JustTerrorIt
Date Joined: Dec 16, 2008
Posts: 9,141

Dec 20, 2011 -- 3:25AM, WiseGreen wrote:

I don't know Modern very well, so there's probably something I'm missing here, but... Is banning a creature necessary?



In this case, no. Wild Nacatl is just a vanilla beater, and if people would just pick up a damn Terror every once in a while we wouldn't have this problem.

As for Stoneforge Mystic , yes, creatures like that should be banned as it's not being a vanilla beater that makes them dominate.

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block Show

May 29, 2012 -- 9:20AM, Mata_Hari wrote:

May 29, 2012 -- 9:13AM, febbstalicious42 wrote:

Disregard women acquire chase rares.

There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.


Jun 9, 2012 -- 1:54PM, bay_falconer wrote:

Jun 7, 2012 -- 11:54AM, Bubasti wrote:

How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?



You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.


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