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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2011 - 5:14PM
#1
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Hello, everybody! Once again, I'm trying to gather players' intuitive answers to interesting rules questions in order to better inform my own opinions about the rules as they currently exist, and how and whether they should potentially be changed. (Also known as "For my own nefarious purposes, muahahahahaha!") For those of you who may not have participated in one of these threads before, and even for those who have, I would please like to remind everyone to just say what you intuitively feel that the answer should be. This is not a test of your rules knowledge; it's a test of what players intuitively believe the rules should be. Do NOT look up the rules before answering. Don't look at anyone else's answers or ask anyone else for their opinion, either. When you answer, do so within an sblock or spoiler tag so that your answer is hidden from casual view and you won't unduly influence others before they give their own answers. Please also tell me how informed your answer is--are you making an informed guess? How informed? Or are just straight-up guessing based on intuition? Is that clear to everyone? Good. Your opponent controls an Oracle of Mul Daya  and has a bunch of other 2/2 creatures; you have no blockers and 3 life. It's your opponent's turn, and he draws a Forest, leaving a Turntimber Grove  on top of his library. In his main phase, he wordlessly plays the Grove off of his library and targets one of his 2/2s with the +1/+1 ability. In response to the trigger, you cast the only card in your hand: Volcanic Fallout  . After the Fallout resolves and the stack empties, all of his creatures, including the Oracle, are dead. Can your opponent play the Forest that's in his hand? Why or why not? Is something wrong here? If so, what? Once again, do NOT look up the rules before answering. Just answer. Right now. In an sblock.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2011 - 5:22PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2009
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Another one already? Well good things sblocks were fixed. Spoiler:
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Of course not. You may only play an additional land when the oracle is in play, and you can't simply claim the first one is the extra one, that's just silly
Official Speaker of the Expanded Multiverse Project, Step into Dominia-Embrace the infinite Magic of the Planes. This ->  is my favorite smiley, I will use it often and without reason. You have been warned. The Story of My Love
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BURSTING WITH VIGOR!
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Trolljuju wiped the sweat from his brow as he continued his slow trudge up the snowy mountain. The wind was strong and fiercely cold, but he pressed against it. Juju knew Beast Engine was somewhere at the peak, waiting for him. But this was not a matter of confronting the forces of nature themselves; that had been accomplished long before, and was now too easy to maintain the manly man's interest. Today, Beast Engine was here waiting for a friend.
Trolljuju's mind drifted from his appointment to thoughts of Beast Engine's manliness. The only man in history to punch the fossilized remains of a dinosaur back to life just to punch it to death again. The man who deflected bullets with his pectoral muscles during his daily assassination attempts. The man who cured cancer with a serum made from pure crystalized virility. The man who burst with vigor. Not just a man but a Man- the manliest of all men. A god of masculinity in physical form.
Trolljuju's heart fluttered at the memory of him and lightened his steps as he pressed on.
Suddenly, he was shaken from his reverie by a deep, powerful rumble in the mountain that shook him to his core. Instinctively, he threw himself to the ground just before the slope ahead of him exploded in a fiery wall of light and heat. So great was the force that the entire upper section of the mountain was vaproized. It scorched Juju's coat, then rose on the air to drift far away, a plume of white-hot ash. When Trolljuju lifted his head to see what was left behind, he beheld a wide, perfectly flat stone plateau, and in the distance he could see a muscular figure, his foot still held up from the kick. There was no doubt it was Beast Engine.
As soon as the ground beneath him cooled, Juju cast his heavy pack aside and ran. As the figure grew with closeness, he could see Beast Engine was nude, as was expected. The snow that fell near him turned to a thin wall of steam, looking to Trolljuju's eyes like a barrier. Engine was too strong, too manly to occupy the same space as the ordinary universe. He lived in a world all his own. But fortunately for Juju, it was only an illusion. He ran at full speed into Engine, who caught him with both arms and effortlessly twirled with him, resting with Juju dipped low to the ground in Engine's arms.
"Beast Engine, my love," Trolljuju breathed, sturck with awe at Engine's masculine beauty despite the familiarity of his face.
Engine just smiled, radiating from every inch of him with incredible strength, yet gentle warmth.
"It's been so long, Juju. I've missed you."
"Forgive me. I lost contact with you while you were boxing with Death to win back and consume the soul of Theodore Roosevelt. But now I'm here..."
Juju lifted one tentative hand to Engine's face, but he pulled away.
"You know I cannot give you what you seek. Were we to make love, your body would be destroyed by the force."
"I know, of course I would," Juju responded, tears in his eyes. "May I have, at least, one kiss?"
"Very well. For you, my friend."
Slowly, gingerly, they came closer. But the moment their lips met, a flood of unbridled manliness rushed into Trolljuju, body and soul, and every cell in his body exploded.
Beast Engine fell to his knees, and in his grief, he wept. The tears that fell from his face burned deep into the rock beneath him. But slowly, his sorrow turned to conviction.
He beat the crap out of Death once. He could do it again.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2011 - 5:55PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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Spoiler:
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You're supposed to say whether you are playing the land from the Oracle or your normal land. I don't know what the "fix" is if you don't. I'll say that the default is that you are using your normal drop unless you say otherwise.
Partially informed. I know the rule says you need to specify if you are using your normal drop or not. Guessing as to what the result is if you don't.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2011 - 6:15PM
#4
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Spoiler:
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I'd guess that the answer is no because the creature with the static ability that would allow you to play additional lands per turn is gone. Unless playing the land from the top of the library doesn't count towards the one per turn limit, regardless of the ability to play additional lands. If this came up in a real game, I'd have to look for a ruling.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2011 - 6:36PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2011
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Spoiler:
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The way it works in my head, Alice cannot play her Forest. On any normal turn, Alice can ask herself, "Have I played a land this turn?" If the answer is no, then she can play a land. What Oracle of Mul Daya does is change the question: "Have I played TWO lands this turn?" If not, then Alice can play a land. Whether Alice is playing the lands from the top of her library or her hand is irrelevant to the question that Alice has to ask herself. When the Oracle dies, the question changes back to normal. "Have I played a land this turn?" In the given scenario, Alice HAS played a land this turn, and thus cannot play an additional land. That Forest is stuck in her hand until her next turn.
I don't have any judging experience or anything. The way I think is "Can I do X?", "Does X cause Y to happen?", etc. In this case, I do think that the intuitive way is also the way it really is, but that's beside the point. 
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2011 - 7:10PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2008
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Spoiler:
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I would let him. He's technically supposed to say whether he's using his normal land drop or his Oracle's bonus land drop when the plays the land off the top of his library, but I wouldn't care either way.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2011 - 7:15PM
#7
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Spoiler:
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Well, he definitely can't play it before the state-based actions occur, since they happen before a player receives priority again, and you need priority to play the land itself. So, the Oracle is definitely in the graveyard.
With the Oracle in the graveyard, he definitely isn't allowed to play an additional land this turn, because there isn't an effect telling him he can.
So, the question is, is he allowed Turntimber Grove as the "additional land" he already played? My answer would be no. Why? 1 word: Fastbond  .
Let's say this was Fastbond instead, and both the Forest  and the Turntimber Grove were in his hand from the start. Fastbond lets you play additional lands as well, at the cost of 1 life per additional land. I don't *believe*, though I could be incorrect, that a player would even be allowed to pay a life for the first land played his turn, even if he wanted to declare it so. Meaning, the first land played is never an additional land, it's always the first land. I would imagine, if Fastbond were destroyed while Turntimber Grove 's triggered ability were on the stack, then after resolution, that player would not be allowed to play their Forest and pay the 1 life to do so.
So, no.
Now, if it's possible that additional lands could be played prior to the first land, I imagine it would need to be declared by the player playing the lands. As in (in Fastbond 's case), "I'm playing land X and paying 1 life for it, so that if Fastbond disappears I can still play a land this turn."
Again, I don't think that's allowed, but I would imagine even if it were, if the player did not declare the land they were playing counted as the additional land from Oracle of Mul Daya , it would default to counting as the first land.
Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
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Theora, A World of Modern Science
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Build Around This
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2011 - 7:26PM
#8
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Also I should say:
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I'm on holiday vacation, so participating on the forums irregularly. I imagine this came up in RT&T or RQ&A for you to post it here, and this time I wasn't actually involved in the discussion. While I try normally not to let that bias my answers in these threads, this time it absolutely is my first impression from the get go, though more or less informed.
Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
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Theora, A World of Modern Science
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Build Around This
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2011 - 7:29PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2005
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Spoiler:
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Of course not. He's already played a land and now that the oracle is dead, he's no longer entitled to play another one. I'm using this based on the general interaction of cards not mattering once they leave. If I kill Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir  , my opponent can't just flash stuff anymore, so why should this be different?
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2 years ago ::
Dec 17, 2011 - 7:29PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2011
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Spoiler:
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This is intuition, as I do not know the rules for this situation.
After the Fallout resolves and the stack empties, all of his creatures, including the Oracle, are dead. Can your opponent play the Forest that's in his hand? Why or why not? Is something wrong here? If so, what?
I would say no. The ability granting an extra land play a turn is gone. The ability seems to say that you can make 2 'normal' land plays a turn (as opposed to Walking Atlas  , which if the ability was used would still allow a normal play on that player's turn). If you make one 'normal' play, and then lose the ability to make the second, then he shouldn't be able to play the forest.
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