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2 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2011 - 10:11PM
#31
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I would love for the Tournament/CR to go into greater detail on what shuffling is, but as they stand, it's clear that mana weaving is illegal.
While I agree with you in principle - this is unfortunately... incorrect. As the rules stand, it is explicit in them that manaweaving IS legal. On page 14 of the Infraction Procedure Guide:
A player should shuffle his or her deck using multiple methods. Patterned pile-shuffling alone is not sufficient. Any manipulation, weaving, or stacking prior to randomization is acceptable, as long as the deck is thoroughly shuffled afterwards.
So the rules actually explicitly ALLOW players to manaweave, as long as they shuffle "thoroughly" afterwards. Whatever that means...
M:tG Rules Adviser
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2 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2011 - 10:28PM
#32
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I'm saying that a judge, when they pick up a pile of cards, has almost no way of being able to tell whether or not the ordering of the cards is genuinely random or is influenced by some sort of manipulation.
Actually, it is possible to check for that sort of thing. It's often difficult, definitely time-consuming, is imperfect at best, and in addition to all that not all judges will know how to do it, but it is possible.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
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2 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2011 - 10:51PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2007
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I would love for the Tournament/CR to go into greater detail on what shuffling is, but as they stand, it's clear that mana weaving is illegal.
While I agree with you in principle - this is unfortunately... incorrect. As the rules stand, it is explicit in them that manaweaving IS legal.
On page 14 of the Infraction Procedure Guide:
A player should shuffle his or her deck using multiple methods. Patterned pile-shuffling alone is not sufficient. Any manipulation, weaving, or stacking prior to randomization is acceptable, as long as the deck is thoroughly shuffled afterwards.
So the rules actually explicitly ALLOW players to manaweave, as long as they shuffle "thoroughly" afterwards. Whatever that means...
Yes, it is legal, as long as it's followed by a complete randomization.
Also known as 'mana weaving is a waste of time if you shuffle correctly afterward, and cheating if you don't.'
MTG Rules Advisor 
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2 years ago ::
Nov 14, 2011 - 1:22AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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Because the test in the rules is "sufficiently randomised", the evidence for that is not the act of manaweaving, but whether or not the deck "looks" randomised to the judge.
I don't see how this follows. If it is clear what procedure was used, and clear that that procedure could not be expected to randomize the deck sufficiently, then ipso facto the deck isn't sufficiently randomized. It is not necessary to check the deck directly.
So the rules actually explicitly ALLOW players to manaweave, as long as they shuffle "thoroughly" afterwards. Whatever that means...
This isn't a counterargument to the claim most people in this thread are making - far from it, it's a restatement of that claim. In fact, you seem to have the same misunderstanding that's already been corrected several times. The claim is (A) "Mana weaving is always either cheating or a waste of time (depending on the thoroughness of your shuffling)", not (B) "mana weaving is, always and everywhere, cheating".
Arguments against (B) are, themselves, either cheating or a waste of time, since no-one is actually claiming (B). Do you actually disagree with (A)? If so, on what grounds?
Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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2 years ago ::
Nov 14, 2011 - 1:55AM
#35
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Whilst it doesn't personally bother me what people get up to in their own casual groups, I will share my own methods and opinions anyway.
Firstly, if your case is that your group is casual so a bit of mana weaving makes everything more fun for everyone as you will have better match ups then why not just concede the game after you miss you 4th, 5th or whatever land drop and it is clear you can't catch up. There is nothing at stake and this way you can get on to the next game, quickly forgetting the previous game that was lost to chance.
Secondly, I personally don't mana weave, I do the following:
1. Upon creation of a new deck (FNM for me is draft so this is at least every week) I will obviously start with a pile of land and a pile of spells. I shuffle each separately then shuffle these together and then continue to shuffle until I am ready for my first match.
2. After each game I will shuffle the cards I used together first, then shuffle these cards into my library until ready for presenting, all face down.
3. Only if I have a game with mana issues will I look through my deck afterwards, face up, for clumps of mana, split them up and put them where mana is sparse, possibly not necessary but makes me feel better. After that I will shuffle.
I don't have too many mana issues, one week I lost a match because in the first game I needed GG and had one forest out of about seven lands, then in the very next game of the match I needed RR and had one mountain in a similar situation. Both times I needed that mana to play a card that could have turned it for me. The same night though, I won a match because game two when I was up one my oponent got mana screwed and couldn't answer me. Bad things happen sometimes, but not always to you.
Cheers
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2 years ago ::
Nov 14, 2011 - 4:21AM
#36
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Part of the skill in Magic is deck building. Part of deck building is having a good enough mana base so you don't get mana screwed. If you have a 5 color deck, building the correct mana base for it can be quite a challenge. There is a reason multicolor cards are usually more powerful than mono-colored cards (in terms of CMC), they are harder to provide the correct mana to cast. If your 5 color deck keeps mana screwing you, the fix should be a different mana base, not mana weaving before the game.
As already pointed out, mana weaving only has two outcomes.
1) You didn't shuffle enough and therefore it is cheating.
2) You did shuffle enough and therefore wasted time.
DCI Level 1 Judge Please autocard: [c ]Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon[/c ] = Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon  [ c=Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon]Skittles[/c] = Skittles Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 14, 2011 - 4:23AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2004
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Yes, it is legal, as long as it's followed by a complete randomization.
Or in other words, as long as you eventually randomize your deck properly, it doesn't matter what nonrandom stuff you did beforehand: weaving, piling, alphabetizing, ... (de)sideboarding ....
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 14, 2011 - 5:09AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2010
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The only time I ever took extra time to "mana weave" before shuffling, I was playing the R/B variant of RDW with Blightning, etc. - my reasoning was that:
A: I wouldn't actually know the order of the cards anyways, and with 24 lands (8 being Zendikar fetches) I was going to shuffle the living hell out of it anyways. And more importantly...
B: Stalling wasn't a factor. I was playing burn. How many matches involving RDW have you ever seen go to time? Hell, if I ever had a match over 30 minutes I'd be surprised. If I did, it damn sure wasn't my fault LOL
Now, in hindsight... Comparing that to any other deck I've ever played with, it made a MAJOR difference. The difference was truly night and day. I haven't mana weaved since and I notice that my land drops aren't as consistent. I especially noticed it during my brief venture into MTGO playing THE SAME DECK card for card... Finding lands in my games was like finding Mythics in booster packs =\
I haven't played at a tournament in a while. I just haven't had the money to put together a competitive Standard deck (or the desire to drive 35 miles each way to lose with a "decent" deck on a Friday night) - but I only "mana weave" now with my friends, and even then occasionally. It's pretty well understood among us that mana screw is lame as hell. And on occasion, we've tried some of the suggestions from T&T and had a lot more fun playing. But that's another kind of unrelated subject :p
Summary: Mana-weaving is cheating, period. In my experience, with any amount of shuffling, there is NO question that it increases the odds of getting lands when you want them. In tournaments, I haven't done it since I stopped playing RDW. Casually, with the people I play with most often we all do it. But with others, I just shuffle normally unless I see them do it. Then I assume they're cool with it and I follow suit.
Sean Stackhouse
Level Two Judge (Yay!)
Maine
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2 years ago ::
Nov 14, 2011 - 5:15AM
#39
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Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2010
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Oh. And the other thing... I shuffle constantly anyways. I shuffle my deck at home sometimes when I'm just sitting around playing ypool or watching TV, when I did go to tournaments I was shuffling in between matches, before matches, hell I shuffled a bunch after my last match just because. I've found that it does help. Because let's say you finish a match a half hour before everyone else does. You can constantly shuffle, look at the cards while you shuffle, test-draw a few opening hands, shuffle some more, then box the deck up when pairings are announced and do your usual 6-pile shuffle or whatever it is you do, as long as it isn't mana-weaving of course :p
Sean Stackhouse
Level Two Judge (Yay!)
Maine
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2 years ago ::
Nov 14, 2011 - 6:10AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2006
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In a 52-card deck, that deck must be rifle shuffled a minimum of 7 times for it to be considered sufficiently random.
In a 60-card deck, 7 is no longer the minimum. 8 would be the absolute minimum, but 9 is more likely.
Therefore, I always rifle shuffle my decks 10 times. Sometimes I throw in a pile shuffle in order to count the deck to make sure it is still exactly 60 cards (or whatever the starting number was). But, I always ensure that i hit 10 rifle shuffles. This doesn't take long, but it takes longer than most people are willing to commit to.
It saddens me when people aren't shuffling enough to randomize their cards. They have built their decks properly to ensure they get good starting hands, but then they don't shuffle their decks and wonder why their starting hands are not what they are expecting. You built the deck, now use it properly. Shuffle, shuffle, shuffle and do it properly. Your game will thank you. How can you ensure your deck is operating properly if you don't get proper information?
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