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Switch to Forum Live View 11/9/2011 BoaB: "Poisonous"
2 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 9:47AM #21
SillyMagician
Date Joined: Nov 11, 2007
Posts: 23
Well, I do have a greivance. BoaB has always been one of my favorite articles to read every week. Always. I was skeptical when JvL took over but he has had some quality articles. My biggest problem is that it should be titled "Building Metagame Decks" rather than "Building on a Budget". You see when you attack the metagame by noticing trends like a prevalence of red decks or a dearth of U/b Control you will be using cheaper cards because you are using a strategy that either hasn't proven itself or hasn't had a chance to be good yet.

These "Metagame Attack" decks are cheaper because they are not tier 1. However, I believe building on a Budget should be so much more. You could feature:

-Intro Deck Evolutions (or more your style, Event Deck Evolutions)
These decks are obviously already designed to a certain degree, but they can always be improved and adjusted to attack the metagame on a budget. Telling someone to add 3 inkmoth nexi to a deck with 1 is hardly advice. Intro decks especially provide a great jumping off point into a strategy. I'd love to see at least one evolution whenever a new set comes out.


-Build decks where no single card costs more than X (where X is $5 or maybe $10). 
-Build deck where the total cost of the deck is less than Y (where Y is $25 or maybe $50).
These decks would be easy for a large portion of your audience to actually build/trade for every week and could even be the jumping off point for a tier-2 competitive deck. Even if a deck costs over $100, if no card is more than $5 it can be easy to trade for the cards to build it and play it. I'd love to see a deck with a specific monetary constraint at least once a month. 


-Pauper or Peasant Decks
To be fair, JvL has done pauper decks a couple times. But this is a great format that is, pretty much by definition, within peoples' budgets. That's what the point of the format is - within this budgetary restriction, be spikey. I'd love to see Pauper highlighted once a month.

 
-Build a deck where the highlight is a draft/sealed archtype. 
A deck like this would take a draft/sealed archtype and evolve it into something more competitive. You could even start with a real draft or sealed pool that you had! I love taking home my prerelease decks and tweaking them into something more competitive and there are tons of synergies and combos you could highlight. It also cross-pollinates into limited play. I'd love to see this when a new set comes out. 


-Build block decks or decks with specific constraints on what sets are allowed. 
Basically, restrict yourself in some way from just typing about Standard. Block decks are usually fairly budget anyway, though I'd impose an additional monetary budget since many standard decks are just block decks. But what about trying to build a deck with the last 2 sets and an M set only. Like NPH, M12, and Innistrad. What could you come up with? Obviously it won't be something to break into the PT with, but you could play your friends, take it to FNM or even encourage other people to play in your own "format". I'd love to see something like this every once in a while.


JvL you're a talented writer and an accomplished magic player. Frankly I can read about most of the decks you write about on a lot of other websites (Chapin was talking about Mono-Black Infect a couple weeks ago, for instance). I can read about Standard on a ton of other websites. I can even read about rogue Tier-2 Metagame Attack decks on a variety of websites. But most websites do not have a column dedicated to playing magic on a Budget. That's because it's an artificial constraint that almost always directly hampers your ability to be competitive. But you can still have a lot of fun with it. Please take some of my ideas into consideration. Thank you.
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 10:31AM #22
RedKutai
Date Joined: Jan 11, 2010
Posts: 58
Honestly, this is probably the hardest column on the site to write. Because, unlike most columns which focus on a particular aspect that players enjoy from the game, this one is completely focused on what prevents players from enjoying the game - the cost.

But you have to realise, this column isn't about building cheap decks - you can throw 60 Islands in a pile, and have a "cheap deck". This article is about minimising costs, while building worthwhile decks. The trouble arises when the writer's definition of "worthwhile" does not coincide with the readers'. It's been pretty obvious that the column's author is decidedly Spike - that he considers "competitive" and "worthwhile" synonymous; unfortunately, it's been made clear by the more vocal portion of the readership, that they don't agree.

Thus the second complication for this column: Building on a Budget is not only going to attract budget-minded Spikes, but budget-minded Johnnies and Timmies as well - I've seen suggestions in this thread alone that indicate both, asking for more innovation, or a more casual focus. Every psychographic has their own dedicated weekly column on the site - but Building on a Budget we share.

Is it fair to expect one author to write toward three distinct audiences? Is it fair to expect him to appeal to audiences that he's obviously not a part of, and whose values obviously differ from his own? I suppose it's fair to ask him to try, but you have to realise the difficulty in accomplishing it; every other author on the site writes columns specifically aimed at those readers to whom they are similar, and who value similar things. It's fair to request some extra attention for those other demographics, but just keep in mind just how tall of an order that is.

Hopefully JVL will realise the position that running this column puts him in, and - however awkward that position is - do as much as he can to accomodate it. I know he's just doing what feels most natural to him, and to be fair he is writing articles that retain the essential premise of the column; he's simply not appealing to as large an audience as is initially enticed by the prospect of 'budget' deckbuilding. I do suspect that given the feedback he's receiving, he'll try to make a few adjustments - but keep your expectations reasonable, because a perfect column (and again, I believe this column is much harder to 'get right' than the others on this site) isn't fair to expect, and it's not going to happen any time soon...
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 10:49AM #23
WashingMachine
Date Joined: May 22, 2009
Posts: 5

JVL, 

Please, please focus on the budget part of your column.   There are many resources that this and other websites have that focus on top tier competitive decks that cost $100 plus to build.  There are even several places to read about rogue decks that are less expensive, but still competitive.  This is the one place that ostensibly focuses on building inexpensive decks.


Please respect the limitations of players who choose to read a column called "Building on a Budget".  A budget is a pre-established limit of expenditures.  Even if you have to redefine what the budget is for each week, please offer decks that are accessible to players with real financial limitations.  If you can’t do that consistently, then perhaps it would be more honest to change the name of the column.

You may have “made a conscious decision to value the quality of [your] decks over their accessibility.”  I and others like me are asking you to rethink that decision.

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 11:40AM #24
Falyxron
Date Joined: Apr 4, 2007
Posts: 290

I feel compelled to speak for a moment about this deck's "budget-ness." It's very difficult right now to build a worthwhile Constructed deck without at least some number of cards that are relatively difficult to acquire. I've made a conscious decision to value the quality of my decks over their accessibility. The decklists I present are still significantly easier to find the cards for than other mainstream decks. Most importantly, these decks are very capable of winning tournaments and letting you have a good time while playing and learning the tenets of deck building. These decks still qualify as budget. Budget is a subjective concept, and I feel it's unreasonable to give it a concrete value.



I appreciate this enormously, Jacob.  If I'm going to read an article about a possible deck, I'd definitely prefer that it be a deck that is at least halfway decent, and can put up a fight against the tier decks that I may run into at my local FNM.  I don't need help making crappy decks - I can do that fine on my own.  If I don't own some of the cards that you suggest, then I can find my own budget replacements for them.  I'd much rather have an idea of what the deck should ideally look like, rather than be presented a crappy version, and try to guess where I could pay money to make it better.

Keep up the good work.

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 12:18PM #25
ROBRAM89
Date Joined: Oct 4, 2007
Posts: 766
The deck's cost is only part of the reason I dislike this article, there's also the fact that it's completely unoriginal. Everybody who runs mono-black poison is basically running exactly this list. If he wanted to make a budget version of it, go ahead, but he didn't. He just picked the cheapest deck people are actually playing already and told us "play that one."
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 1:10PM #26
Senyuno
Date Joined: Jun 21, 2010
Posts: 425
Right, he posts the stuff after tier 1. He focuses on the cheaper decks in the format that are getting there. But that's honestly too easy. I probably even have the time to do what he does. I can go on Decks of the Week, find something interesting, load it up, and test it a few times... Writing about it would be all too easy.

If you really want to build on a budget, you don't look at a great deck and downsize it. You take it in a different direction where the alternatives are stronger than what you left behind. It takes a different thought process entirely.

And building based on an unheard of idea from scratch is often the best way to start. 
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 1:31PM #27
12three45
Date Joined: Jun 2, 2010
Posts: 258
This was an interesting article. I find it funny that you talk up the Curse as a huge tool to beat expected decks, and this deck would have a hard time beating a curse too. The strategy to bait the hero was nice to learn.

As for the budget thing, maybe the series should be called 'Competing on a Budget'.
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 1:55PM #28
Blackbird71
Date Joined: Jul 7, 2009
Posts: 82
Mr. Van Lunen,

For a moment, I'd like to focus on one paragraph in your article:

Speaking of oid()" keyvalue="Inkmoth_Nexus" keyname="name">Inkmoth Nexus, I've chosen to play four of them in this deck. The oid()" keyvalue="Inkmoth_Nexus" keyname="name">Inkmoth Nexus give this deck a huge amount of resilience to sorcery-speed removal and ground creatures. Two oid()" keyvalue="Lashwrithe" keyname="name">Lashwrithes should be enough to make just one attack lethal.




With this statement alone, you have disqualified this deck as budget.  What's more is that you also prove that you have no understanding of the term. 

Let me help you out here.  Budget means "inexpensive", not just "less expensive than other options."  While that definition can still be somewhat subjective depending on individual income, you really need to take into consideration that a huge portion of Magic players are either younger kids or students who don't have a lot of income to begin with, or are older players who do have jobs, but who also have responsibilities, obligations, and expenses that take priority over a card game.  When you practically admit that you don't care how much the deck costs in absolute terms, as long as it's cost is relatively lower than other decks in existence, you ignore the concerns of all of these players.  And while you may call that "budget,"  calling it so does not make it true.

Especially nowadays, in a time with so much financial upheaval and uncertainty in the world, when many people have to cut down on luxuries like games and hobbies, it would be wise to truly understand what it means to build on a budget.  At least, it would be if you intend to not alienate a lot of potential readers (and customers). 

Others who have gone before you have managed to present decks that were fun, inexpensive, and at least somewhat competitive (good enough for FNM, which is what a lot of readers seem to be looking for here); you should do the same.  If you find that you are incapable of that, then you should move on to something else, or at the very least, rename the article, because it stopped being about building on a budget quite some time ago.

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 2:25PM #29
Mdrgn3
Date Joined: Aug 27, 2009
Posts: 59
I love BoaB cuz I can always hop on and see what cool deck I could try to put together. The problem with this week was that I'm already rolling a mono-black infect deck and I do agree that it's really good right now. But it's already a archtype.. I used to enjoy off the wall decks from this article, Beastmaster deck did really well when I played it in FNM(2nd place) but if you want to look into competive decks that are budget in comparrison or metagame choice then  I think the column would be better if a handful of ideas for the same deck were presented, like for this deck this version can do well against aggro decks and tokens but has trouble with control. The version I'm running does well against control AND aggro. If you were to post multiple ideas of the same deck then more people would benefit from the article.
My EDH decks:
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 09, 2011 - 4:42PM #30
sketchesofpayne
Date Joined: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 19
I agree with previous sentiments: the problem here is the article's title.  Instead of 'Building on a Budget' it should be something like 'Tier 2 Deck Workshop.'

Honestly for me a budget deck is using the commons and uncommons I already have and throwing down $20 on some rares.  Only in very rare instances will I pay more than $5 for a single card.  For a lot of us $100 is an entire month's gaming budget.  No way I'd blow all that on ONE magic deck.
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