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2 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2011 - 3:04PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2008
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It's certainly what green wants to do. With lands that double as evasive men and pump? Sure, it works.
But... Recursion. Board control. Making 14 power on 3 bodies. Vigilance instead of trample. Targeting protection instead of trample. More bodies instead of trample.
Sittuationally, given that we have lands that double as pump and evasive manlands that basically read "do twice as much damage as your power to players", yes, Prime Tits is where it's at.
In the abstract, however, 6 mana is a ton of mana, and setting up recursive redonculousness, taping the board out or creating a sittuation that's "wrath or die" is better.
Tutoring for lands, as great as it may be, isn't that amazing at 6 mana. If you only needed to do that then you could have done it faster instead of ramping. The fact that we don't have Wasteland or any other decent land destruction in the format is what spells doom. We live in a standard where removal is relatively inefficient, albiet effective, counter control isn't as popular as board control and it's easier to kill a creature than a specific land.
It's a standard where green ramp dominates. Of *course* the green ramp-based Titan is going to be the in-practice best.
We're still talking about something you ramp into which then gets you more lands. If black and/or white still had WoG, and/or blue had decent counter options the format wouldn't give green ramp such a nudge. Larger chance of 6cc spells not resolving and the need for them to create more than a pair of removal targets? Yeah, now we're talking.
A meta with hexproof rampant, etc. isn't going to give you sane results.
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****  .
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2 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2011 - 3:15PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2003
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@Lulzy Stuff: Grave Titan and Primeval Titan are CLEARLY the best of the cycle in pretty much any Standard format ever. It's not even close... "Make infinite dudes" and "Get the most powerful land(s) available" are obviously better than "tap something," "Put a small thing on the field from my yard" or "Herp Derp arc lightning." Seriously. L2Magic. As Zvi Mowshowitz put it so long ago: "Consistent mana is the key to Magic."
At 6 mana, getting extra lands is not that powerful in the abstract. Infinitely recurring things is.
In practice, though, especially in Zendikar, fetching lands IS powerful and the decks that want Sun Titan aren't great in this format because graveyard hate is just high anyway.
I would say that Sun Titan is the generic third-best of the cycle. But you can't really argue that Primeval Titan is worse... getting 2 utility lands is awesome, provided they exist (which they have in pertty much every Standard format of the last 6 years). I mean, Ghazi Glare? Helllooooo beautiful. Kamigawa Block? Boseiju? The other utility legendary lands? Yeah... Time Spiral Legendary Lands? Yup. Hideaway Lands?
Have I made my point yet?
Tutoring Boseiju was only relevant in like two decks (and only one of them green), to solve a matchup where Primeval Titan would never resolve anyway unless Tooth and Nail would.
Ghazi Glare could have used it, but again that deck was probably killing you are around 6 mana anyway. Outside of Vitu-Ghazi, none of the Ravnica utility lands were that good, but Titan wouldn't have been bad in that format where utility lands were pushed so hard.
None of the Time Spiral legendary lands that I can remember did anything but mana-fix, so again it's not all that amazing.
Hideaway lands are okay, but again the mana cost is a factor - PTitan was one of the cards that people would play from under Hideway lands because it was much faster then casting it to set up some other Hideaway combo.
I don't even remember Alara having non-colour fix lands.
Zendikar, and now Innistrad (and Scars to a lesser extent) had some really powerful spells-as-lands.
It's really not even about giving niche cards to black.
It should be about giving black cards to Niche.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2011 - 3:38PM
#33
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None of the Time Spiral legendary lands that I can remember did anything but mana-fix, so again it's not all that amazing.
How about Academy Ruins  ?
L1 Judge
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2 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2011 - 4:13PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Oct 14, 2007
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Acadmey Ruins, Urborg (yes, I would totally do that for the swamps-matter cards), Urza's Factory (technically not Legendary).
I think the main reason people dismiss Prime Tits is that they forget that, occasionally, you cast the card and they actually kill it, at which point the things you just got are very relevant. Heck, back in the day just tutoring up 2-4 Treetop Village would have been REALLY good...
There's also the overlooked fact that deck-thinning is good. Once you pull 4 lands out of your deck, your draws mathematically become a lot better. 6? Sweeettt.
That, and being able to just ramp super-fast actually opens certain decks up to seeing play that otherwise just couldn't exist.
My blog (everyone else is doing it...): http://ideas-abounding.blogspot.com/ "Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong. Paper, rock, and scissors, they all have their pros and cons." - Relient K DISCLAIMER: I'm not a nice person. MOTL Sale List: http://www.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/087367.html#0  Sig by the modest, yet talented, zpikduM.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2011 - 4:39PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2003
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Acadmey Ruins, Urborg (yes, I would totally do that for the swamps-matter cards), Urza's Factory (technically not Legendary).
I think the main reason people dismiss Prime Tits is that they forget that, occasionally, you cast the card and they actually kill it, at which point the things you just got are very relevant. Heck, back in the day just tutoring up 2-4 Treetop Village would have been REALLY good...
Academy Ruins was only good in the Mono-U Urzatron deck, so again the relevance of Titan is low.
I do agree in principle with your latter point, though I feel it doesn't justify PTitan v Other Titans (except Frost) - it is the reason that Titans automatically render 85% of the creatures from 5cmc and up unplayable when they wouldn't otherwise be. With the exception of Frost Titan (by far the worst in the abstract), the fact that you gain some permanent advantage even if they just kill it is a huge deal (which is why Consecrated Sphinx is played in favour of Frost Titan most of the time - drawing 2 cards even if it gets O-Ringed or DoJ'd or Sever the Bloodlined or anything is always better than a once-only tapdown effect. Hell, even getting instant-speed removal on your Sphinx during their upkeep is a better deal than that.)
There's also the overlooked fact that deck-thinning is good. Once you pull 4 lands out of your deck, your draws mathematically become a lot better. 6? Sweeettt.
lolfetchland argument. Deck thinning is far less relevant mathematically then people think it is. It's fine, but it's not all that.
That, and being able to just ramp super-fast actually opens certain decks up to seeing play that otherwise just couldn't exist.
This is mostly true; I don't think it necessarily acts as an argument for saying Primeval is more powerful than the others per se, but it is a redeeming feature of the Titan cycle, who are otherwise (IMO) bad to have in the format because of how many cards they render straight-up not worth playing.
It's really not even about giving niche cards to black.
It should be about giving black cards to Niche.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2011 - 4:40PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Aug 29, 2009
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Tutoring for lands, as great as it may be, isn't that amazing at 6 mana. If you only needed to do that then you could have done it faster instead of ramping. The fact that we don't have Wasteland or any other decent land destruction in the format is what spells doom. We live in a standard where removal is relatively inefficient, albiet effective, counter control isn't as popular as board control and it's easier to kill a creature than a specific land.
Believe me when I say you should be happy that Wasteland and other good land destruction is not in the format. Cheap land destruction is the perfect complement to ramp, since both result in tempo gains. Most of the Legacy decks I play or played (Monoblack, Eva Green, The Rock, Bant Blade, Maverick) use that principle to good effect. Wasteland especially would be very obnoxious with Primeval Titan.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
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2 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2011 - 4:42PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2003
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Tutoring for lands, as great as it may be, isn't that amazing at 6 mana. If you only needed to do that then you could have done it faster instead of ramping. The fact that we don't have Wasteland or any other decent land destruction in the format is what spells doom. We live in a standard where removal is relatively inefficient, albiet effective, counter control isn't as popular as board control and it's easier to kill a creature than a specific land.
Believe me when I say you should be happy that Wasteland and other good land destruction is not in the format. Cheap land destruction is the perfect complement to ramp, since both result in tempo gains. Most of the Legacy decks I play or played (Monoblack, Eva Green, The Rock, Bant Blade, Maverick) use that principle to good effect. Wasteland especially would be very obnoxious with Primeval Titan.
Dear Jesus that would be horrific.
It's really not even about giving niche cards to black.
It should be about giving black cards to Niche.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2011 - 4:49PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Oct 14, 2007
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Assume you go Rampant Growth --> Solemn --> Primeval. Turn 5 you have one land in hand, attack, blah blah. turn 6 you have 11 land on the board, giving you, say, 15 lands left in your deck, none in hand. When you go to draw, you have 4-5 spells in hand, so 41 cards left in your deck. Those 4 lands not being in your library changes the math from 19/45 to draw a land (~42%) to 15/41 to draw a land (~36.5%). Over the next 5 turns, that can be the difference between winning and losing.
My blog (everyone else is doing it...): http://ideas-abounding.blogspot.com/ "Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong. Paper, rock, and scissors, they all have their pros and cons." - Relient K DISCLAIMER: I'm not a nice person. MOTL Sale List: http://www.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/087367.html#0 Sig by the modest, yet talented, zpikduM.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2011 - 4:52PM
#39
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Believe me when I say you should be happy that Wasteland and other good land destruction is not in the format. Cheap land destruction is the perfect complement to ramp, since both result in tempo gains. Most of the Legacy decks I play or played (Monoblack, Eva Green, The Rock, Bant Blade, Maverick) use that principle to good effect. Wasteland especially would be very obnoxious with Primeval Titan.
I miss Annex  . 
Team PMP - Practice Makes Perfect
Team GFG - Good F***ing Game
Disclaimer: This member may or may not be associated with Team GFG in any other regard besides his admiration of its members.
Use faith in the absence of science, not in its stead.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2011 - 4:59PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2008
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Assume you go Rampant Growth --> Solemn --> Primeval. Turn 5 you have one land in hand, attack, blah blah. turn 6 you have 11 land on the board, giving you, say, 15 lands left in your deck, none in hand. When you go to draw, you have 4-5 spells in hand, so 41 cards left in your deck. Those 4 lands not being in your library changes the math from 19/45 to draw a land (~42%) to 15/41 to draw a land (~36.5%). Over the next 5 turns, that can be the difference between winning and losing.
Yeah, assuming the other side doesn't interact with you all, it's nice.
But... card quality isn't that amazing unless you need answers or threats right now... in which case, hey, look, GY recursion!
If you resolve a Titan and get to swing with it once, you *should* win. It's a 6/6 beatstick with inherent card advantage built in. Agains control it just resolving is a nightmare. Against aggro... well, rock decks dominated aggro for a reason, and busting board control wide open is part of it.
Assuming you've fought through counters to get the tits down, which would you rather have?
Again, we've got plenty of spells-as-lands in standard, so so the fact that you get twice as many *things*, and the fact that counters are weaker because you can't counter lands plays an effect on the game, but a 6% decrease in your odds to draw land aren't as important as... *bam* mini-combo or enough power on enough bodies to require a WoG. It's only the fact that lands are either howls from beyond or evasive infect creatures that makes it better.
Not that control isn't worth running, but if it was healthier the white and black tits would be shown to be pretty amazing as finishers.
edit: And, hell, why does frost titan have crappy hexproof instead of the real thing or, better yet, flash?
Lock 1 down, require a sac effect to remove or EoT lockdown, lockdown would be an actual control finisher then. Meh.
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their **** .
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