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Magic: The Gathering Daily MtG Article .. 10/17/2011 Feature Article: "Greetings from the...
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 13, 2011 - 1:10PM #1
WotC_Monty
Date Joined: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 1,652
This thread is for discussion of this week's Feature Article by Zac Hill, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2011 - 9:24PM #2
HammerAndSickled
Date Joined: Mar 16, 2010
Posts: 174
I think it's really depressing and unfair when R&D members just flat-out state "We don't like good control decks, good combo decks, or resource denial/lock strategies. The dynamic of the game should be about fast aggro decks with small creatures versus midrange aggro decks with medium creatures versus "control" decks with ridiculously powerful (Titan) creatures."

Some people like to think more when they play magic. 
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2011 - 9:35PM #3
Alongitog
Date Joined: Mar 6, 2010
Posts: 41

Oct 16, 2011 -- 9:24PM, HammerAndSickled wrote:

I think it's really depressing and unfair when R&D members just flat-out state "We don't like good control decks, good combo decks, or resource denial/lock strategies. The dynamic of the game should be about fast aggro decks with small creatures versus midrange aggro decks with medium creatures versus "control" decks with ridiculously powerful (Titan) creatures."

Some people like to think more when they play magic. 




That's not what he said.

I know there's no way to prevent seven to ten pages of comments like this; but I hope at least some fraction of this article's readers will pay attention to what the author actually wrote.  He wrote it well and thoughtfully, explaining in very professional and polite terms how hard this team works to create the game we love.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2011 - 9:46PM #4
tonykart34
Date Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 152
Would have been a good idea to not include duel lands in every freaking color combination so people don't play the same exact cards in every deck.  Would also be a good idea to stop pre-determining decks in development and let people sort it out themselves.  Walking up and down the rows of nerds at states it went something like this...

Solar Flare, Solar Flare,Solar Flare,Solar Flare,Wolf Run Ramp,Solar Flare,Solar Flare,Illusions,Solar Flare,Mono Red, Solar Flare,Solar Flare,Solar Flare, Wolf Run Ramp, Wolf Run Ramp, Solar Flare,Solar Flare, Wolf Run Ramp, Solar Flare,Mono Red, Mono Red, Solar Flare,Solar Flare,Solar Flare,Tempered Steel,Solar Flare,Solar Flare,Solar Flare,Solar Flare, Wolf Run Ramp, Solar Flare, Wolf Run Ramp, Solar Flare,Solar Flare,Wolf Run Ramp, Solar Flare, Wolf Run Ramp, Mono Red,Solar Flare,Solar Flare,Solar Flare

Fun! 
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2011 - 9:52PM #5
SadisticMystic
Date Joined: Aug 6, 2003
Posts: 1,067
The key passage for me was this (in regard to why decks like Draw-Go are no longer made viable):

All of these decks share a common root: they eliminate the dynamism and excitement that comes with constructive interaction between cards, largely because their goal is to ignore as much of the rules text on the opponent's cards as possible.




Two reasons for this jump out immediately:
1. Magic has always been cast as a battle between wizards, where the object is to defeat your foe(s). Given such a destructive metric for success, expecting cooperation between the players seems little more than a pipe dream. Could a cooperatively-metrized variant of Magic take off? Possibly, but due to the fundamental concepts that make Magic Magic, I doubt such a thing would even remain interesting for long.
2. With the idea of drawbacks becoming all but extinct in recent years, all the rules text on all the cards amounts to pretty much the same fundamental thing: "Add 5% to your win probability" or "Add 30% to your win probability" (the latter on cards deemed "swingy" enough to need a red expansion symbol). When you're pretty much assured that every one of your opponent's cards is strictly positive for them (and thus strictly negative value for you), preemptively shutting them down gives you a pretty good idea of what you're gaining. Granted, if a card has negative value, it probably isn't going to go in a deck to begin with, but the combination of competitively-costed cards with drawbacks can be crafted so that the value fluctuates, possibly including both negative value and a value high enough to earn a spot in the deck, which would help to create the environment of "using the opponent's cards against them" that R&D seemingly wants as an answer to the question "Why would I want my opponent to even be able to get their cards out, if each of those cards is just going to help me lose?"

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2011 - 10:15PM #6
HammerAndSickled
Date Joined: Mar 16, 2010
Posts: 174
The thing is, the game has elements that are designed to help adapt to any threat. Draw-go decks too big in the future league? Don't cut them because you have this idealized view of Magic as creatures smashing into each other. Simply make room for a more viable aggro deck with creatures at one and two mana to sneak under counterspells. Or make a creature like Thrun, the Last Troll . If land destruction is too viable, decent aggro decks will still be competitive vs. the land denial strategies. As will the draw-go decks. If combo is too good, the draw-go control builds will hate them out. It's a mark of a very good game when every strategy has a counter-strategy such that no one strategy becomes optimal. But artificially hamstringing that process because of some preconceived notion of "fun" is not what people want in a strategy game.

To clarify my thinking here: what's the point in making so diverse of a game engine if you're going to limit people artificially? Just like the article earlier about "bad cards" and how pretty much everyone hates them (and Mr. LaPille didn't give one substantial reason why these cards HAVE to exist, he merely gave his support for why current philosophy wants them to), by creating environments and altering design to fit this notion of "fun" you are in effect creating "bad cards" in context.

What exactly are players to do with their 20 copies of Melt Terrain or Into the Maw of Hell when R&D has specifically designed these cards to suck in standard? They could be amazing. If either or both of them cost 1 less, or there was simply a critical mass of these sorts of effects, or a Terravore or Knight of the Reliquary it might be more viable. But someone at Wizards decided it wasn't fun, so even people who DO find it fun can't succeed with it. (For the last few months of last rotation I played land destruction in Standard to some FNM success. So this is one instance where I can talk! :P)

 It's one thing to weaken strategies you dislike to discourage their use. It's another entirely to shape a format such that there is literally no support for an archetype many players enjoy.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2011 - 11:10PM #7
Esc7
Date Joined: Jun 14, 2010
Posts: 25

Oct 16, 2011 -- 9:52PM, SadisticMystic wrote:

The key passage for me was this (in regard to why decks like Draw-Go are no longer made viable):

All of these decks share a common root: they eliminate the dynamism and excitement that comes with constructive interaction between cards, largely because their goal is to ignore as much of the rules text on the opponent's cards as possible.




Two reasons for this jump out immediately:
1. Magic has always been cast as a battle between wizards, where the object is to defeat your foe(s). Given such a destructive metric for success, expecting cooperation between the players seems little more than a pipe dream. Could a cooperatively-metrized variant of Magic take off? Possibly, but due to the fundamental concepts that make Magic Magic, I doubt such a thing would even remain interesting for long.
2. With the idea of drawbacks becoming all but extinct in recent years, all the rules text on all the cards amounts to pretty much the same fundamental thing: "Add 5% to your win probability" or "Add 30% to your win probability" (the latter on cards deemed "swingy" enough to need a red expansion symbol). When you're pretty much assured that every one of your opponent's cards is strictly positive for them (and thus strictly negative value for you), preemptively shutting them down gives you a pretty good idea of what you're gaining. Granted, if a card has negative value, it probably isn't going to go in a deck to begin with, but the combination of competitively-costed cards with drawbacks can be crafted so that the value fluctuates, possibly including both negative value and a value high enough to earn a spot in the deck, which would help to create the environment of "using the opponent's cards against them" that R&D seemingly wants as an answer to the question "Why would I want my opponent to even be able to get their cards out, if each of those cards is just going to help me lose?"


"Dynamic and constructive interaction between cards" does not mean "cooperative" AT ALL.  It means that the cards simply MATTER to each other, not that the two players are trying to make their cards be friends.

Think about the current crop of black removal.  No single spell is Terminate, because Terminate is too good for monocolor.  Terminate is boring.  Instead each spell has its own weakness to their targets, so a deck playing different targets INTERACTS with the other causing interesting play situations, or in another word: Fun.

What I think is interesting is that while R&D has the goal of game balance and funness, competitive magic players/Spikes have the absolute opposite goals.  They look for the most unbalanced, advantageous cards, fun be damnned.  It is neither group's fault to have diametrically oppossing goals, and try to succeed at both.

As a thought experiment, I imagined what would happen if they printed a sorcery that said: "You tie the game."  Not a very fun card I would hope, by anyone's metric.  You simply stop playing Magic, when you sat down to play Magic.  But it would totally see competitive play, because if you get ahead in a match there would be great incentive to tie out every other game.  Of course you play less Magic this way, but that's not the point.  The point is to win.

But WOTC's point is to PLAY not win.  So I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you feel like they're being unfair to us by setting goals that we don't share, it's not their fault. 

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2011 - 11:26PM #8
willpell
Date Joined: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 4,832
Whoa, what card is this?

media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/fea...

I'm disappointed by the policy of putting cards that are vital to a set's archetypes in a previous set, just so they'll rotate 3 months faster, because it completely wrecks Block Constructed, which is what I tend to prefer.  I don't like being forced to include an m11 card in what is intended to be an all-Mirrodin deck.  3 more months of the artifact-creature deck running on all cylinders might be a little less interesting than having that time be a window when you debate running the deck without Overseers, but ultimately it's not that long a time and not a very meaningful choice.

Also, on the subject of archetypes that they identify as unfun, I'm disappointed that they mentioned "Resoruce-advantage decks that aim to make Magic a contest of raw attrition", which I've never heard of anyone having a problem with, yet doesn't mention the painfully unfun and massively dominant strategy which constantly ruins my day - aggro.  Wizards seems to think that it doesn't suck when you get steamrolled on turn 4 or 5, but it does.  I shouldn't get flattened before I've even started to play my game.  It takes less time than getting in a prison or LD lock and waiting until you deck, but it's not like you can't concede in those cases when you're sure that you're stuck.  Aggro on the other hand is essentially a "time destruction" strategy, and I find it almost as horrible as LD or HD.
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits
My M12 Writing Credits

As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing.
--Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2011 - 11:37PM #9
jeff-heikkinen
  • ****(ytic)
Date Joined: Aug 13, 2001
Posts: 8,345
"That does kind of beg a question, though."

AAARGH! No, it doesn't. It raises the question. Begging the question is something else entirely, and if you're doing it, you probably don't want to admit it.
[/petpeeve]
Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2011 - 11:39PM #10
CubFan99
Date Joined: Oct 6, 2008
Posts: 4

Oct 16, 2011 -- 11:26PM, willpell wrote:

Whoa, what card is this?

media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/fea...




That's the FNM artwork for Ghostly Prison, later reprinted in the Political Puppets Commander deck.

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