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Switch to Forum Live View 10/07/2011 LD: "The Play's the Thing"
2 years ago  ::  Oct 06, 2011 - 10:25PM #11
JahnuB
Date Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Posts: 23
Unfortunetely for me, Tom, I am a 14-year-old who has neither a Magic store nor Magic Online. So I can't give you an exact feeling for Innistrad's cards. I guess I could just go out there and buy packs at Wal-Mart, then play with my brothers, but that's all there really is for me.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 06, 2011 - 10:28PM #12
Mystrin
Date Joined: Jul 10, 2009
Posts: 22

Oct 6, 2011 -- 10:07PM, GainsBanding wrote:

Tom Lapille says "shut up, trolls" in 10,000 words.




This is what I heard too.  I get that you don't want to hear about how you're doing your job badly, but it comes with the territory and it might be true, considering how Standard went recently and how Modern seems to be shaping up.

I'm just waiting for the Forbidden Alchemy ban now, since I'm going to enjoy using it to win Magic in a way that is unfun to the other player.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 06, 2011 - 10:36PM #13
Hydroharmonics
Date Joined: Oct 25, 2010
Posts: 2
I've never seen anyone make a major play against an Innistrad limited deck without first asking "what's in your graveyard?"  It seems like it would only take one mistake of that sort before a new player would learn to check as well, so Silent Departure seems fine as an instant.  It would also give Standard the good bounce spell it needs in the wake of losing Into the Roil.

The mention of Momentary Blink raises the question - why not reprint Momentary Blink in the slot in Innistrad?  Feeling of Dread is a fine limited card, but Momentary Blink is incredibly popular from what I know and lots of people would love to try to play it in Standard/Limited again.

Final random point in this series of random points: it's easy for players to 'go out and play' to learn how much they like certain mechanics, but it's impossible for them to see the other side.  For example, you can't 'go out and play' to find out how much fun Silent Departure would be as an instant, because your draft opponent will accuse you of cheating/not allow you if you try to play it as an instant.  So you really can only find out if you like R&D's choices, not whether you would have liked other choices better.
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 06, 2011 - 10:49PM #14
pygmyallosaurus
Date Joined: Apr 22, 2008
Posts: 40
Did I miss something, or did this developement article during Werewolf Week have nothing to do with the developement of werewolves?
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 06, 2011 - 11:26PM #15
Numdiar
Date Joined: Jul 29, 2009
Posts: 217

Does tom even understand magic?  How did this guy even get into RnD?  Every time I read anything from him it just sounds like he has no clue what he's talking about.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 06, 2011 - 11:35PM #16
Amarsir
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2006
Posts: 2,711

Preview Season:


"Here's a card, talk about it!"


"Here's another card, ooh, let's speculate about it!"


"Oh another day another card, wow, isn't this amazing."


After release:


"You players have a lot of nerve giving opinions about cards before you've played with them."

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 06, 2011 - 11:39PM #17
bateleur_
Date Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Posts: 278


It's also not something I saw anyone talk about during the preview season. And how could you have? No one was playing games yet.


Not that I disagree with your point about the importance of playtesting, but if you didn't see all those points made and more then you're reading the wrong forums!

Oct 6, 2011 -- 11:26PM, Numdiar wrote:

How did this guy even get into RnD?


Tom LaPille's a former Pro. He's mainly a Developer and WotC - with good reason - find most of their Developers this way. It proves they're good at the game.

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 06, 2011 - 11:43PM #18
jeff-heikkinen
  • ****(ytic)
Date Joined: Aug 13, 2001
Posts: 8,345

Oct 6, 2011 -- 11:26PM, Numdiar wrote:


Does tom even understand magic?  How did this guy even get into RnD?


By  being a top pro-level player. In other words - to reiterate the point of the article (which, by the way, is what just made that big whooshing sound over your head), by actually playing it at a high level.


Every  time I read anything from him it just sounds like he has no clue what  he's talking about.


Tells me a lot more about you than it does about Tom, especially given the total absence of a substantive reason for disagreeing with anything he said.




Oct 6, 2011 -- 11:35PM, Amarsir wrote:


Preview Season:


"Here's a card, talk about it!"


"Here's another card, ooh, let's speculate about it!"


"Oh another day another card, wow, isn't this amazing."


After release:


Carefully and politely goes out of his way - despite considerable temptation - to avoid saying "You players have a lot of nerve giving opinions about cards before you've played with them."


There, that's better.



Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 07, 2011 - 1:09AM #19
Qilong
Date Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 2,165
Tom LaPille writes:

"Magic players are full of opinions, and every time a new card is revealed, players share their opinions enthusiastically.
...
I knew that none of those commenters had played a single game with the cards.
...
Here in R&D, we're professional game designers who make Magic all the time. Before we played lots of games of Magic with double-faced cards, we didn't have a clue what they would be like  either. If we didn't know before that, there's no way that the average Magic forum poster knew."

Translation:

"Y'all are wrong, because we played with the cards, and liked them this way."

This, however, comes from comments about Werewolves in the specific and DFCs in the general (but focuses on 'Wolves on the mechanical while ignoring the DFCs on the mechanical aspects that were raised). Note that I was part of the crew that argued about the mechanical aspects of the cards, and the blatant handwaiving used to dismiss alternatives to the functionality of the cards. DFCs for DFC-sake (LaPille being a developer for that other DFC-using game) does not sound useful, reasonable, or anything less than an invested opinion, and that's a bias.

Consider the above quotes:

If I could presume the people I discussed or listened to had a potential valid point to make, would I listen to them as being reasonable people who might be right, regardless of how invested I was in the development of the mechanic or card design? Would, if I were predisposed to agreement with my company, admit that those individuals who raised points about the cards were right in any aspect raised? Scientific surveys have been conducted, of which many are published, noting that most people with an invested interest in a product or idea will not let go of it, either when confronted with conflicting information, or even when shown proof of its wrongness -- these include, but are not limited to, anti-vaxxers, deniers of global anthropogenic climate change, evolution, creationism, and any number of left- and right-wing consipiracy theories. The functional method of ignoring these conflicts is known as motivated reasoning, and the quotations above assert this blatantly.

--

For the record, I have gone out and watched players play with them, and discussed the cards with good players, and dedicated players, and examined how many of these cards play in Limited (at least) (just Werewolves, mind, since we're on theme), and read articles on the useful cards coming in the format, and they do not tend to show up very favorably on many of the "transformers," which only goes to show they are not "more than meets the eye."

Limited players very, very differently from Standard constructed, and this Friday I will have a chance to see if Standard with 'Wolves will be any different in practice, but note that most players who will try to play and win will simply be following latest reports of top decks and just carbon-copy these. The 'Wolves tribal decks shall be used, and Human tribal, and I fear it won't make it simply because the cards don't exist for it (seriously, like not making tokens Human even when it seems they should be) that would smooth the decks from what are otherwise patchy representations.

But unless the 'Wolves deck is just about playing and replaying Moonmist , there will be problems in Standard ... or, of course, the cards are designed to simply kill your opponent in three swings, and this can be done by not casting spells on your turn AND get 'Wolves into play.

You have to understand, not everyone who responds to these forums is an utter fool: some of them, despite being Magic players, are incredibly intelligent and foresightful, even those few guys who predict the formats and make "wise" choices about buying up certain cards for cheap early because they'll increase later down the road, accurately guessing they will become ridiculously powerful (MOAR 'Goyf!).

--

But the quotes also say something bad about the perspective in R&D, that you guys are perfect and more right than we who decry your actions. It is we who say some cards are ridiculously too powerful, wrong to print, wrong to design, and you guys who turn around and say "we'll just ban them later if they're a problem." Seriously?

You mismeasure the intelligence and potential correctness of your readers, and mismeasure your rightness on the matters you speak of. You are correct that we lack the dedicated half year spent in R&D playtesting some of the cards, but you ignore that some you never playtest ( Umezawa's Jitte ), or test and then tweak "for the worse," and then never retest ( Skullclamp ), intentionally push regardless of potential expected impact ( Mental Mistep ), have literally no clue its ability to be used ( Memory Jar , Hermit Druid , Oath of Druids ), or find that the mechanic is just "too useful" to throw out despite all the logistical issues involved in it (DFCs, Phy-mana, Affinity, artifact lands).

The notion that R&D is "all wise" is flagrantly wrong: It is often, if not MORE often, that the players, not R&D, catch the errors in design and development, and have, after the fact, gone to some lengths to exploit the cards in a deck for the purpose of pointing this out (as I recall the issue with Jar came about, causing it's rapid banning). In 'Clamp's case, Sottosanti deserves that credit, in R&D, but you'd already printed it, and Paul was not a dedicated R&D specialist as you, LaPille, apparently are. So knocking the relative intelligence of the Magic player base to the forum posters denigrates the intelligence of people whom you do not know, but simply disagree with.

Magic players are full of opinions, and every time a new card is revealed, players share their opinions enthusiastically.
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count."

"Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)

"Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
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2 years ago  ::  Oct 07, 2011 - 1:11AM #20
Qilong
Date Joined: Nov 18, 2004
Posts: 2,165

Oct 6, 2011 -- 11:43PM, jeff-heikkinen wrote:

Oct 6, 2011 -- 11:26PM, Numdiar wrote:


Does tom even understand magic?  How did this guy even get into RnD?


By  being a top pro-level player.




Not quite. Tom LaPille started Magic from a non-playing background, and started playing WITHIN the company. This was explained in his first two articles. He's literally learned the game from within R&D.
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count."

"Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)

"Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
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