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2 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2011 - 1:46PM #1
Falyxron
Date Joined: Apr 4, 2007
Posts: 290
I'm studying to become a judge, so of course I am working my way through the hazing process that is Humility + Opalescence interactions.

The Layer System article from 2009 and Zamm's FAQ have cleared a few things up, but they also raise some questions that I have not seen answered elsewhere.

1.  When both Humility and Opalescence are in play, does Humility have anything written on it?  When Humility is a creature, does its ability of "all creatures lose their abilities" cause it to apply its effect to all creatures, and then disappear off itself?  Or will it stay, and effect further creatures?  If I have Humility and Opalescence in play, and I cast Blinding Mage , will it come in as a 1/1 with no abilities, or as a 1/2 with the ability to tap creatures?

2.  The Question #4 in the article seemed to make sense, but I don't understand why Dralnu's Crusade has part of its ability removed by Humility.  A judge explained to me that When Humility and Opalescence are in play, Opalescence continues its effects in Layer 7, even after Humility has removed all abilities in Layer 6, because "Opalescence's effects have already started applying."  The article itself says: "If a continuous effect has started applying in an earlier layer, it will continue to apply in later layers even if the ability that created that effect has been removed."  Dralnu's Crusade had effects that applied in Layers 4 and 5, well before Humility removed all abilities in Layer 6.  Why do the Level 7 effects of Dralnu's Crusade not apply?

3.  Kind of a side question - If Opalescence is in play, and someone tries to cast Confiscate on it, what happens?  Does Confiscate enter play as an Aura, and then fall off once it becomes a creature?  I was under the impression that creatures cannot be attached to other permanents via equipping or becoming an aura.

Thanks very much.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2011 - 1:57PM #2
cyphern
Date Joined: Jan 19, 2003
Posts: 17,650

Sep 26, 2011 -- 1:46PM, Falyxron wrote:


1.  When both Humility and Opalescence are in play, does Humility have anything written on it?


I'm not sure that's the correct question to ask, because barring white-out (tipp ex if you're not american), nothing changes what's written on the card.

Instead, what we need to do is step through the layer system, taking into account that new things are on the battlefield, and see what we end up with. In practice, this means that humility can apply to additional objects.

If I have Humility and Opalescence in play, and I cast Blinding Mage , will it come in as a 1/1 with no abilities, or as a 1/2 with the ability to tap creatures?


In layer 4, we apply opalescence's type-changing effect, and humility is now a creature. In layer 6, humility's ability-removing effect is applied, and now neither humility nor blinding mage have any abilities. In layer 7b, we apply opalescene's power-and-toughness-setting effect and humility's power and toughness setting effect in timestamp order. Assuming humility has a later timestamp,  both humility and blinding mage are 1/1s.

As a result, blinding mage is a 1/1 with no abilities (at every moment that it is on the battlefield)


2.  The Question #4 in the article seemed to make sense, but I don't understand why Dralnu's Crusade has part of its ability removed by Humility.  A judge explained to me that When Humility and Opalescence are in play, Opalescence continues its effects in Layer 7, even after Humility has removed all abilities in Layer 6, because "Opalescence's effects have already started applying."  The article itself says: "If a continuous effect has started applying in an earlier layer, it will continue to apply in later layers even if the ability that created that effect has been removed."  Dralnu's Crusade had effects that applied in Layers 4 and 5, well before Humility removed all abilities in Layer 6.  Why do the Level 7 effects of Dralnu's Crusade not apply?


Opalescence has one big ability which generates effects in multiple layers. Dralnu's Crusade actually has two abilities (make sure to check it's oracle text). The first ability modifies power and toughness. The second ability does multiple effects: turning them black, making them zombies.

Since the power and toughness ability is a standalone, it can't benefit from the rule that says that once an effect begins to apply it continues to apply in later layers. The power and toughness effect never began to apply.


3.  Kind of a side question - If Opalescence is in play, and someone tries to cast Confiscate on it, what happens?  Does Confiscate enter play as an Aura, and then fall off once it becomes a creature?  I was under the impression that creatures cannot be attached to other permanents via equipping or becoming an aura.


Opalescence only turns non-auras into creatures. Confiscate will be unaffected.



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2 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2011 - 1:58PM #3
Argus_Panoptes
  • Trumps Judges
Date Joined: Sep 17, 2004
Posts: 5,194

Sep 26, 2011 -- 1:46PM, Falyxron wrote:


I'm studying to become a judge, so of course I am working my way through the hazing process that is Humility + Opalescence interactions.

The Layer System article from 2009 and Zamm's FAQ have cleared a few things up, but they also raise some questions that I have not seen answered elsewhere.

1.  When both Humility and Opalescence are in play, does Humility have anything written on it?  When Humility is a creature, does its ability of "all creatures lose their abilities" cause it to apply its effect to all creatures, and then disappear off itself?  Or will it stay, and effect further creatures?  If I have Humility and Opalescence in play, and I cast Blinding Mage , will it come in as a 1/1 with no abilities, or as a 1/2 with the ability to tap creatures?



The ability is removed, but the effect continues to be applied.

613.5. If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.



Blinding Mage would lose all abilities and be 1/1.

Sep 26, 2011 -- 1:46PM, Falyxron wrote:

2.  The Question #4 in the article seemed to make sense, but I don't understand why Dralnu's Crusade has part of its ability removed by Humility.  A judge explained to me that When Humility and Opalescence are in play, Opalescence continues its effects in Layer 7, even after Humility has removed all abilities in Layer 6, because "Opalescence's effects have already started applying."  The article itself says: "If a continuous effect has started applying in an earlier layer, it will continue to apply in later layers even if the ability that created that effect has been removed."  Dralnu's Crusade had effects that applied in Layers 4 and 5, well before Humility removed all abilities in Layer 6.  Why do the Level 7 effects of Dralnu's Crusade not apply?



108. Cards

108.1. Use the Oracle_(TM) card reference when determining a card's wording. A card's Oracle text can be found using the Gatherer card database at <gatherer.wizards.com>.



When Dralnu's Crusade's abilities are removed, "All Goblins are black and are Zombies in addition to their other creature types." has started and finished applying.  But the "Goblin creatures get +1/+1." ability hasn't even started to apply, so that rule is irrelevant to it.

Sep 26, 2011 -- 1:46PM, Falyxron wrote:

3.  Kind of a side question - If Opalescence is in play, and someone tries to cast Confiscate on it, what happens?  Does Confiscate enter play as an Aura, and then fall off once it becomes a creature?



Once it what??

"Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness  each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment."  [CR 108.1]

No, I am not a judge.  That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2011 - 2:11PM #4
RootBreaker
  • On the "Watch List"
Date Joined: Oct 13, 2002
Posts: 4,801

Sep 26, 2011 -- 1:57PM, cyphern wrote:

 In layer 4, we apply opalescence's type-changing effect, and humility is now an enchantment. In layer 6, humility's ability-removing effect is applied, and now neither humility nor blinding mage have any abilities. In layer 7b, we apply opalescene's power-and-toughness-setting effect and humility's power and toughness setting effect in timestamp order. Assuming humility has a later timestamp,  both humility and blinding mage are 1/1s.


I think you mean creature here.

All Generalizations are Bad
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2011 - 2:14PM #5
cyphern
Date Joined: Jan 19, 2003
Posts: 17,650
Indeed i do. Thanks!
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2011 - 2:19PM #6
Falyxron
Date Joined: Apr 4, 2007
Posts: 290
Your breakdown was exceedingly helpful, cyphern.  Thanks very much.
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