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Switch to Forum Live View 09/09/2011 TWTW: "Getting to the Points with Aaron and Scott"
2 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 5:57PM #1
Garmichael
Date Joined: Jun 24, 2008
Posts: 1,572
This thread is for discussion of this week's The Week That Was, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 9:22PM #2
mabhatter
Date Joined: Aug 3, 2006
Posts: 155
I think the idea is to get more people to EVENTS at stores and not just tournaments. But yeah, players going for those pro slots won't play in events with newbies... Because one newbie with a Legacy "griefer" deck of commons and uncommons can wreck their "rating" just by tying.. And in some cases you can even WIN and lose ranking because your "competition" won against a tougher opponent pairing.

That kind of thing is silly, and it's bad for the game not to have the best players teaching the game.  This will also reward the FNM guys that will never get past mid-pack.. But they show up EVERY WEEK at the store to play. Their points will count for something too in a different pool than the guys that only show up to win stuff.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 9:22PM #3
Spottiethecat
Date Joined: Aug 23, 2011
Posts: 9
This article was pointless. This addressed none of the important issues, mainly what for the guys with actual jobs who can BUY the 1000 something dollar decks and can only play once a week, and how going 4-5 and 3 american gps beats winning a ****ing european one! ADDRESS THE ****ING PROBLEMS, DON'T PROVIDE FLUFF!!!
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 9:22PM #4
SadisticMystic
Date Joined: Aug 6, 2003
Posts: 1,086

Larabee: The one-sentence description of Planeswalker Points is: "Playing is good. Winning is even better."




um...

Forsythe: "...the way you keep people invested is through a constant stream of positive reinforcement."




Now this one's particularly telling: it's about keeping everyone "invested".

I've participated in a grand total of one (prerelease) tournament ever since Psychatog (and Mudhole) rotated out of Standard, and there's still nothing to convince me to come out of that snap.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 9:23PM #5
Calavera777
Date Joined: Mar 11, 2009
Posts: 1,786
Just wanted to point out there every PTQ/states/regionals I played prior to 1999 has an incorrect event multiplier. hopefully this will be fixed en masse as I submitted one appeal but there are 30 or so events and I'm too laxy to submit for each of them.
Calavera on MTGO
I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours!
Things that I want to see changed on MTGO:
1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events.
2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts.
3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible.
4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly!
5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper
6: Power 9!
7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic)
8: Program Split option back in!
9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp)
10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor.
11: Bring leagues Back!
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 9:38PM #6
psyconfuse
Date Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 86
I have 2 problems to the new system.

1. Participation points based on size.  This fact chokes smaller stores horribly.  Players interested in qualifying are suddently leaving the smaller stores for bigger ones because larger size means more rounds for more points and more participation points.

2. The FNM modifier is disproportionate.  If you work friday evenings your chances are tiny.  You have PTQs and that's it.  This exascerbates problem 1 with the biggest FNM getting all of the business.  My stores in my area play nice and each take a different day to host a standard tournament.  The non-friday days enjoyed the 16k weight where the FNM had only 8k weight, but you get other incentives like foils.  The Friday store seems to be king now.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 9:50PM #7
Moonblaze
Date Joined: Jun 10, 2010
Posts: 2
I've had a few days to ponder these changes since they were announced, and while I'm not happy about them I'm going to learn to live with them. I am one of the so-called "casual-competitive" players. I enjoy bigger events like PTQs, GPs, and Nationals and will travel to them when it is reasonable. I also have a full-time job and a relationship, so I have to choose the events I play in carefully to maximize my enjoyment of the game without disrupting these other important elements of my life.

The fundamental change that is occuring here is that you are replacing a rating system with an achievement system. While ELO was not perfect for Magic, it was a very clear indicator of how well someone performed over time. There may have been peaks and valleys, but everyone with a high rating EARNED it in some way by playing Magic well. Those with a high number of Planeswalker Points may also end up being good players, but the system rewards different things. Primarily, it can reward players who spend all their free time playing Magic, and all their expendable income on buying your products and travelling to your highest multiplier tournaments each week.

My greatest concern in all of this is that Wizards as a company is now promoting these potentially unhealthy social habits by dangling the biggest rewards they can offer in front of its players as an incentive. Aaron's MMO analogy is spot-on, and make no mistake, the high-level competitive Magic scene will undoubtedly become the type of grindfest that is the biggest negative association most people have with those types of games. Pro Tour Magic will no longer be about gathering together the best in the game, but about gathering together those for whom Magic is Life, with little room for anything else life has to offer.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 10:18PM #8
Tap4Mana
Date Joined: Sep 21, 2010
Posts: 606
I mostly agree with you, moonblaze.  However, even though the PP system rewards the players who go to high multiplier tournaments each week, it rewards those people that WIN those same tournaments even more.  So I don't think that your going to have what happens with the Baseball Hall of Fame happen to Pro Magic... the cream will (I think) still rise to the top and players that consistently win large tournaments on a regular basis will still outpace people who only rack up participation points.

Personally, I'm a casual player (FNM's and Pre-Releases) who has wanted to make the jump to playing in a few tournaments like GP's, but I didn't think that it would be worth the trip only to get trounced by experienced tournament players.  But the idea that I do get some reward for playing in a big event like a GP even if I don't change the world with my latest rougue combo deck does make a difference to me.  Mostly because of this announcement, I plan on going to the next GP in my area, which is in a couple of months.

As for the issue of players who have spent all their money on putting together top tier (expensive) decks, Magic has been like that as long as I've been playing. Even when I first broke in (Onslaught) I droped a fair hunk of change on my awesome zombies and clerics.  My final suspicion, and this is the other reason that the PP system has me going back to the tournament scene is that the PP system provides an easy way to create a replacement for the old MTG Player Rewards program. But nothing in this announcement mentions the rewards program, so for now that's just a feeling that I have.


So I may be in the minority, but for me at least, the PP system has done what it set out to do.
~ Current Decks I'm Playing or Building ~
(Click a deck's name to see list)
[] CorpseJunk Menace/Township Counters (Standard)
[] Reanimation/Clerics Theme Deck - Commander: Ghost Dad
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[] Azorious Turbo Fog (Modern)


   
   
   
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 10:47PM #9
carrionpigeons
Date Joined: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 86
I'm going to say something that'll probably make you skim this post and not get the point, so I'm just asking you to read the second sentence, too, before dismissing me out of hand.

"Incentivizing gameplay" is bad, okay?  It's one thing to take away reasons not to play the game, and of course it's great if the game is fun and people want to play to enjoy themselves.  But giving people a reason to play the game even if it isn't fun is going to hurt the game in the long run.

You actually SAID you stole this from MMOs; have you actually played WoW (which is what I assume was the specific game that meant)?  Grinding is NOT FUN.  It's a CHORE.  WoW's little system of turning everything into positive reinforcement took away the ability to enjoy the activities involved.  Leveling is a chore you do in order to be able to play in dungeons - except once you get to that point, playing in dungeons is a chore you have to do in order to be able to play in raids.  And then raids turn into a big grind in order to prepare for the next tier of content.  Everything is positive reinforcement all time, and NONE of it is fun as a direct result.  The only place in WoW that DOESN'T give you all positive reinforcement all the time is PvP, and hey, guess what?  PvP is what keeps long-term players in the game.

Constant positive reinforcement will not keep players interested in playing on a long-term basis.  In fact, the opposite is true: it will hurt people's ability to stay interested, because constant positive reinforcement is boring.  This is a demonstrated fact that you can see just by glancing over the demographics of what activities long-term players engage in, in WoW.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2011 - 10:58PM #10
Calad
Date Joined: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 499
I feel that your changes are very short sighted, and while you mean well, it will start to alienate many players who cannot grind every weekend. The biggest allure for travelling to any GP is that top16 invite. To hang out with a few friends here and there and test and practice your matchups in order to get that elusive PT invite, because lets face it, the amount of variance in PTQing as you guys have pointed out can be very punishing. Top16ing a GP was a perfect balance between skill and the variance of playing magic.

While on this note, what happens to top50 at a PT, do these players also get an invite to the next PT? What about pro player club levels, are these now gone?
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