Okay, so I'm going to try my best to re-write everything that I just wrote, Before I could copy everything before I posted anything; backspace is apparently a shortcut to go back in google chrome... so annoying! This will be my thrid time trying to post this...
Conduct question, Question 1:
So I have platinum angel out and am playing against a Myr deck. I'm at -2 life & 4 poison counters.
Someone that is not my opponent, better yet, he's not even in the tornament says "You're bad at this game" looking at me. "You have 14 mana out and aren't even casting any spells, are you trying to lose this game?!" then tells my opponent "I'll tell him why he's bad after the game".
I want to keep 7 mana open, casting one of the Artisans would cost 9 and give me 5 mana, not enough for Not of this world to protect the angel from the Dispatch I knew he had (this was the third game, we play best 2 out of 3 at the eastside game store. - So I knew that card was in this deck, but I had not seen a condemn yet, but I also never seen him go below one card in hand) - ande I didn't want to waste my Not of this world on a condemn to have my angel be killed by a dispath next turn.
Turns out they wanted me to attack with the angel and my opponent said that I won that game 10 times over, which I told them I was worried about the card Condemn after the game. and Told the guy that was provoking me that I had to save 7 mana for Not of this world Which he said "she doesn't have 7 strength, and I said "If I pay for it, it doesn't matter!" then he shut up and walked away, but the fact remains that during the game, he wouldn't shut up and was constantly provoking me to do stuff that I would have never done (which I didn't do that time, but sometimes when I'm really tired, I fall for it - which is what I'm worried about in the future).
My question is, is there anthing I could have done about it, I believe this falls under "Unsportsmanship like conduct", but he wasn't in the tornament, so what could I have possilby done about that? And the game store owner is way too nice and wouldn't go for anything like "kicking him out of the store" my only thought is "lower is DCI rating", something, anything. - People that don't even pay for the tourney being able to just spew non-sense to make people play irrationally just doesn't seem like it should be allowed. I'm at my ropes here I have no idea but its really bothering me now - At the time I just ignored him, but theres been too many times when I'm way too tired that I just listen to the peanut gallery. And I know they aren't spoussed to say anything, Is there any conduct rule that says something about this?
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Another thing thatr came up is that a returning magic player has been playing at another store and apparently, acording to the other store; they said that man-lands, like Celestial Colonnade and planeswalkers abilities like Gideon Jura are only useful for being blockers. Our argument is that Gideon can only be used at Sorcery speed, so he couldn't be used as a blocker but it falls flat when you look at the comprensive rules (Ithe best I could find was 302.6, but it only explains creatures, nothing in the comprehensive rules says anything about permanents becoming creatures, I've printed out the comprensive rules and we've all looked, also used the Ctrl+F shortcut for summoning sickness, lands and creatures. Nothing is better than 302.6.
302.6. A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol or the untap symbol in its activation cost can't be activated unless the creature has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. A creature can't attack unless it has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. This rule is informally called the "summoning sickness" rule.
Honestly, the "creature" is only under your control for that turn. The permanet is under your control for longer, but its the creature that matter in this situation, according to the comprehensive rules if I understand them correctly.
Before, I "knew" the guy was wrong, and that the Celestial Colonnade could attack, but after reading 302.6 and seeing no other supporting evidence, I'm starting to think he's right The coprehensive rules say nothing about the permanet being under your control since the beginning of the trun, all they seem to care about is the "creature"; not the "permanet". So, as much as I'd like to prove him and the other game store wrong, I can't, even though I "know" I'm right, thing is I'm starting to doubt that I'm right - because of the comprehensive rules; if tere is nothing better than 302.6.
Another thing, Spellskite .... too many people are trying to make a whole buch of spells be redirected to it that care totally illegal targets, like Not of this world and Overrun is it too much to ask to see this reprinted with less controversial text? - Because its always the same arugument every tournament - starting to give me a headache. - Without the internet I can't win any arguments against this card.
Please, suporting evidence, depsrately needed on all questions, I will be printed this out and using it for ruling questions. Because these situations are getting rediculous.
My question is, is there anthing I could have done about it
Yes. Call the judge (or the TO if there is no judge), and tell him what's going on so he can get the spectator to stop. Spectators should not be interfering in a match.
From the Magic Tournament Rules:
Spectators are responsible for: • Remaining silent and passive during matches and other official tournament sections, such as Limited deck construction, in which players are also required to be silent. If spectators believe they have observed a rules or policy violation, they are encouraged to alert a judge as soon as possible. At Regular or Competitive REL, spectators are permitted to ask the players to pause the match while they alert a judge. At Professional REL, spectators must not interfere with the match directly. Players may request that a spectator not observe their matches. Such requests must be made through a judge. Tournament officials may also instruct a spectator not observe a match or matches.
Another thing thatr came up is that a returning magic player has been playing at another store and apparently, acording to the other store; they said that man-lands, like Celestial Colonnade and planeswalkers abilities like Gideon Jura are only useful for being blockers.
That's completely wrong. "The creature" is "the permanent"--it doesn't matter how long the thing has been a creature, just how long it's been under your control.
You had the right idea thinking about Gideon. What would be the point of giving Gideon an ability that would be utterly and completely useless? What would be the point of giving Celestial Colonnade vigilance, giving Raging Ravine its attack trigger, or making Creeping Tar Pit unblockable, if they could never normally attack?
Another thing, Spellskite .... too many people are trying to make a whole buch of spells be redirected to it that care totally illegal targets, like Not of this world and Overrun is it too much to ask to see this reprinted with less controversial text? - Because its always the same arugument every tournament - starting to give me a headache. - Without the internet I can't win any arguments against this card.
The text Spellskite has is the only text it can have to do what it does, so no, it won't be being reprinted with different text.
While it's possible to activate Spellskite's ability on a spell or ability that doesn't have targets, or that has targets but couldn't legally target Spellskite (like Overrun or Go for the Throat ), doing so is pretty much useless. You can do it, but there's no point in doing so. A spell or ability that doesn't have a target at all can't have its targets changed, because it doesn't have any to change, and a spell or ability that can't target Spellskite can't have its target changed to Spellskite for the same reason it couldn't have been cast targeting Spellskite in the first place.
This should help; it's from the FAQ document released for New Phyrexia:
Spellskite {2} Artifact Creature -- Horror 0/4 {U/P}: Change a target of target spell or ability to Spellskite. ({U/P} can be paid with either {U} or 2 life.)
* You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
* If changing one target of a spell or ability to Spellskite would make other targets of that spell or ability illegal, the targets remain unchanged.
* If the spell or ability has multiple instances of the word "target," you choose which target you're changing to Spellskite when Spellskite's ability resolves.
* By activating Spellskite's ability multiple times, you can change each target of a spell or ability with multiple instances of the word "target" to Spellskite, one at a time.
* The target of the spell or ability won't change unless Spellskite fulfills all the targeting criteria, even if multiple instances of the word "target" are used. For example, you can't change both targets of Arc Trail to Spellskite.
* If a spell or ability has multiple targets but doesn't use the word "target" multiple times, such as Fulgent Distraction, you can only successfully change one of the targets to Spellskite.
* If a spell or ability has a variable number of targets, you can't change the number of targets.
* If Spellskite leaves the battlefield before its ability resolves, the targets remain unchanged.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real. --Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
2. 606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
i think that should cover it, so it cannot be used as a blocker
as for summoning sickness, it doesn't matter if the creature was a Planeswalker, a Land or an Artifact before you animate it, the important thing is that that permanent has been under your control since your most recent turn so you cannot attack with Gideon or the Colonnade the turn you play it, but you can the next turn just fine
3. they can activate Spellskite just fine, if the spell doesn't have a target or Spellskite isn't a legal target it just won't do anything. but if for some reason they want to lose life that's their choice
#2: Yup, as others have said, the rules do not care if the creature has been a creature long enough. They are if the creature has been under your control long enough. You activate Gideon. Gideon is now a 6/6. Then you ask exactly what that rule asks you to ask. "Has Gideon been under my control since the beginning of my turn?" If yes, he can attack. If not, he cannot. The rule does not ask "Has Gideon been a creature under your control", just if he's been under your control.
#3: As others have stated, they can activate spellskite just fine. Spellskite just requires a target spell or ability, not one that targets or can target Spellskite. But the rules say that if you try to change a target to a target that isn't legal, the target is not changed. That'd be 114.6a:
114.6a If an effect allows a player to “change the target(s)” of a spell or ability, each target can be changed only to another legal target. If a target can’t be changed to another legal target, the original target is unchanged, even if the original target is itself illegal by then. If all the targets aren’t changed to other legal targets, none of them are changed.
So if you cast Not of This World and your opponent uses spellskite on it, the target would not change because the spellskite is not a permanent you control.
You might want to print up all of 114.6, as that contains all the retargeting related rules.
And as to Overrun, well, Spellskite's ability changes targets. Overrun does not target, therefore, no target to change. If your fellow players don't properly understand what does and does not target, you'll want to show them section 114.1, which covers what targets:
114.1. Some spells and abilities require their controller to choose one or more targets for them. The targets are object(s), player(s), and/or zone(s) the spell or ability will affect. These targets are declared as part of the process of putting the spell or ability on the stack. The targets can’t be changed except by another spell or ability that explicitly says it can do so.
114.1a An instant or sorcery spell is targeted if its spell ability identifies something it will affect by using the phrase “target [something],” where the “something” is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. (If an activated or triggered ability of an instant or sorcery uses the word target, that ability is targeted, but the spell is not.) Example: A sorcery card has the ability “When you cycle this card, target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.” This triggered ability is targeted, but that doesn’t make the card it’s on targeted.
114.1b Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent spells with targets. An Aura’s target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, “Enchant&rdquo. The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. An Aura permanent doesn’t target anything; only the spell is targeted. (An activated or triggered ability of an Aura permanent can also be targeted.)
114.1c An activated ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase “target [something],” where the “something” is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the ability is activated; see rule 602.2b.
114.1d A triggered ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase “target [something],” where the “something” is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the ability is put on the stack; see rule 603.3d.
114.1e Some keyword abilities, such as equip and provoke, represent targeted activated or triggered abilities. In those cases, the phrase “target [something]” appears in the rule for that keyword ability rather than in the ability itself. (The keyword’s reminder text will often contain the word “target.&rdquo See rule 702, “Keyword Abilities.”
Short version, things that target say Target something in them or are auras.
Okay, so I'm going to try my best to re-write everything that I just wrote, Before I could copy everything before I posted anything; backspace is apparently a shortcut to go back in google chrome... so annoying! This will be my thrid time trying to post this...
Conduct question, Question 1:
So I have platinum angel out and am playing against a Myr deck. I'm at -2 life & 4 poison counters.
Someone that is not my opponent, better yet, he's not even in the tornament says "You're bad at this game" looking at me. "You have 14 mana out and aren't even casting any spells, are you trying to lose this game?!" then tells my opponent "I'll tell him why he's bad after the game".
I want to keep 7 mana open, casting one of the Artisans would cost 9 and give me 5 mana, not enough for Not of this world to protect the angel from the Dispatch I knew he had (this was the third game, we play best 2 out of 3 at the eastside game store. - So I knew that card was in this deck, but I had not seen a condemn yet, but I also never seen him go below one card in hand) - ande I didn't want to waste my Not of this world on a condemn to have my angel be killed by a dispath next turn.
Turns out they wanted me to attack with the angel and my opponent said that I won that game 10 times over, which I told them I was worried about the card Condemn after the game. and Told the guy that was provoking me that I had to save 7 mana for Not of this world Which he said "she doesn't have 7 strength, and I said "If I pay for it, it doesn't matter!" then he shut up and walked away, but the fact remains that during the game, he wouldn't shut up and was constantly provoking me to do stuff that I would have never done (which I didn't do that time, but sometimes when I'm really tired, I fall for it - which is what I'm worried about in the future).
My question is, is there anthing I could have done about it, I believe this falls under "Unsportsmanship like conduct", but he wasn't in the tornament, so what could I have possilby done about that? And the game store owner is way too nice and wouldn't go for anything like "kicking him out of the store" my only thought is "lower is DCI rating", something, anything. - People that don't even pay for the tourney being able to just spew non-sense to make people play irrationally just doesn't seem like it should be allowed. I'm at my ropes here I have no idea but its really bothering me now - At the time I just ignored him, but theres been too many times when I'm way too tired that I just listen to the peanut gallery. And I know they aren't spoussed to say anything, Is there any conduct rule that says something about this?
Tell them:
"Sorry, I do not like your advice at the moment, because I play the way I do for my own reasons, and it is illegal for me to take advice. Plus, I want to play this match in my own way."
If they still don't shut up, say this:
"Listen, would you please be more quiet? I can not think well when you tell me waht to do the whole time, and as I said before, I don't want your advice right now. I want to think for myself."
If they still go on:
"Hey, shut up, please, you annoy me a lot!"
Still:
"Last time, shut up, I try to think here!"
If this fails, ask your opponent politely to wait (preferably during your turn, where he has to wait anyway) and get the manage and tell him that *that* guy is disrupting your match, "and if you please could tell them to not talk to you while you play? No need to kick anyone out or something, just tell them to be quiet, okay?".
This didn't happen, but I can see this being a problem in the future, someone will argue it; because I see crazy arguments like this all the time; if it is "Illegal to take advice" - That just sounds so simplistic and is way too faulty in my opinion...
Not thinking about it orginally I tap the mana for the primeval, and just happen to remember that I have one in the graveyard and a kozilek in my hand (I come to realizations a lot right before I use my mana.) - I go to tap more mana - and as I'm doing it, or before I start to tap more mana someone watching says "Are you stupid, you have a Artisan in your hand and a primeval in the graveyard." Or some other belligerent "advice". - Am I then banned from doing what I was going to do, just because that person said something?
No. Being given advice is not a rules violation in itself- assuming of course you didn't ask for it. There is nothing stopping you acting on the advice- there's no way to prove you weren't going to do it anyway. I'd recommend calling a judge on the person giving the advice because it shows you're not in cahoots.
Someone that is not my opponent, better yet, he's not even in the tornament says "You're bad at this game" looking at me. "You have 14 mana out and aren't even casting any spells, are you trying to lose this game?!" then tells my opponent "I'll tell him why he's bad after the game".
Immediately call a judge, or a store owner/manager. A non-participating spectator is NOT permitted to interfere with a game.
Your opponent and yourself should not involve yourselves with discussions with such hecklers. Simply stop the game, and get the judge. And then when the situation is resolved, continue the game.
The whole gideon/colonnade thing is just confusing to me.
The ONLY interpretation I can come up with for this situation is that someone confused summoning sickness with... something else.
ALL permanents you put in to play are subject to summoning sickness until you have controlled them since the before the beginning of your current upkeep.
This includes land and planeswalkers. Generally speaking it doesn't matter. Only creatures are directly impacted by summoning sickness.
A land isn't normally a creature, so it can do what it does (generate mana or whatever). Planeswalkers aren't creatures either (usually), so you can do what they do too, without worrying about summoning sickness.
The two examples you list, however, just happen to be the specific examples that break this rule.
Gideon CAN be a creature. You can make him a creature the turn he comes in to play. The moment you make him a creature, however, will be the moment he suffers the effects of summoning sickness. You can't attack with him. If he were to be given an activated ability, he couldn't use it.
The same is true with Celestial Colonnade or Inkmoth Nexus (or a mountain animated by Koth of the hammer ) - always pay attention to which mountain you are activating with Koth)
If you make them a creature during their first turn in play, they will have summoning sickness.
After mind control ling a creature, they too will have summoning sickness that turn unless something gives them haste (say by using Act of Treason instead of Mind Control)
That's about all I can think of that they were confusing. Gideon cannot be a blocker in 99% of cases - I leave 1% since there are ways to [c name="Act of Aggression"]make him a blocker[/c], but they are irrelevant to many games. You can of course activate your man land during declare attackers step and declare it as a blocker in the following step.
The spellskite issue is just one you will have to carry a print out for.
Can't target artifacts? Spellskite can respond but it won't do anything - he's an artifact. Can't target creatures you don't control (let's say... EQUIPMENT for example)? Spellskite can respond, but it won't do anything. He can't steal an opponent's equipment.
Spellskite is awesome - he can steal enchantments like Splinter Twin , redirect most removal, and block 3/3 creatures. But he's not magical. He doesn't get to be something other than a spellskite.
I never let my mind wander. It's too small to let it go off by itself
CCG achievements Still calls the games CCGs and not TCGs... bah, young 'uns!
Decipher games 2001 North American Continental Champion Inaugural Hall of Fame Inductee Responsible for killing Young Jedi CCG (really!)
Wizards of the Coast games Won my one and only Pokemon tournament using only Pikachu and Raichu in the deck - and declaring loudly "PEEE-KAH-CHUUUUU" -- true story.
ALL permanents you put in to play are subject to summoning sickness until you have controlled them since the before the beginning of your current upkeep.
This includes land and planeswalkers. Generally speaking it doesn't matter. Only creatures are directly impacted by summoning sickness.
Once again, I take issue with this interpretation/explanation. Keep in mind that "summoning sickness" is not a trait or condition that objects can "have." Really it's just a shorthand way of saying "rule 302.6, also known as the 'summoning sickness' rule." So every time you would say "summoning sickness," try replacing it with "rule 302.6" and see if it still makes sense.
"All permanents are subject so summoning sickness." Okay, so that becomes "all permanents are subject to rule 302.6." Is that right? Let's see what 302.6 actually says (bolding mine):
302.6. A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol or the untap symbol in its activation cost can't be activated unless the creature has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. A creature can't attack unless it has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. This rule is informally called the "summoning sickness" rule.
Now, from that it should be clear that "summoning sickness" aka "rule 302.6" doesn't give two tiny rat's **** about things that aren't creatures. It says one thing about creatures, and it says another thing about creatures, and it doesn't say anything about anything else. Why, then, would you assume it applies to anything besides creatures?
They key is realizing that the game rules care only about how long you've controlled an object and not how long that object has been a creature.
Some people prefer the explanation "All permanents have summoning sickness, but only creatures are affected by it," and I suppose that's not entirely unacceptable, but I still prefer the simpler, and entirely correct, second half of that statement on its own:
"Only creatures are affected by summoning sickness."
Remember that "summoning sickness" is not a trait or quality, but a rule, and that only creatures are affected by [that rule].
ALL permanents you put in to play are subject to summoning sickness until you have controlled them since the before the beginning of your current upkeep.
This includes land and planeswalkers. Generally speaking it doesn't matter. Only creatures are directly impacted by summoning sickness.
Once again, I take issue with this interpretation/explanation. Keep in mind that "summoning sickness" is not a trait or condition that objects can "have." Really it's just a shorthand way of saying "rule 302.6, also known as the 'summoning sickness' rule." So every time you would say "summoning sickness," try replacing it with "rule 302.6" and see if it still makes sense.
"All permanents are subject so summoning sickness." Okay, so that becomes "all permanents are subject to rule 302.6." Is that right? Let's see what 302.6 actually says (bolding mine):
302.6. A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol or the untap symbol in its activation cost can't be activated unless the creature has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. A creature can't attack unless it has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. This rule is informally called the "summoning sickness" rule.
Now, from that it should be clear that "summoning sickness" aka "rule 302.6" doesn't give two tiny rat's **** about things that aren't creatures. It says one thing about creatures, and it says another thing about creatures, and it doesn't say anything about anything else. Why, then, would you assume it applies to anything besides creatures?
They key is realizing that the game rules care only about how long you've controlled an object and not how long that object has been a creature.
Some people prefer the explanation "All permanents have summoning sickness, but only creatures are affected by it," and I suppose that's not entirely unacceptable, but I still prefer the simpler, and entirely correct, second half of that statement on its own:
"Only creatures are affected by summoning sickness."
Remember that "summoning sickness" is not a trait or quality, but a rule, and that only creatures are affected by [that rule].
Technically speaking, ALL permanents are subject to ALL rules.
So yes - indeed - lands, planeswalkers and artifacts are all subject to rule 302.6. Whether they are creatures or not is one of the conditional statements around which the rule revolves.
The rules say you cannot have more than 7 cards at the end of your turn. Is that rule not in effect when you have 5 cards? It's just how rules are. Sort of universal. They just do their thing when the situation demands it.
It's semantic, but rules don't differentiate between card types as to whether those rules are in effect. They are always in effect, they are the games rules after all. Whether the rules impact the card or not is determined as necessary.
I am not sure that your "key" precludes the fact that all game objects are subject to the rule. You are right, it only cares how long you have controlled the permanent, whether it's a creature or not. The rule only comes in to effect when the permanent is made a creature - but the length of time you have controlled that permanents as a non-creature is equally as important as whether the permanent is now a creature as far as the rule is concerned.
By the very letter of the rule and your interpretation, gideon and man lands could be determined not to be able to attack ever. Since they aren't creatures at the beginning of the turn - you didn't control the creature since the beginning of your turn, you controlled the permanent - which is now a creature.
I never let my mind wander. It's too small to let it go off by itself
CCG achievements Still calls the games CCGs and not TCGs... bah, young 'uns!
Decipher games 2001 North American Continental Champion Inaugural Hall of Fame Inductee Responsible for killing Young Jedi CCG (really!)
Wizards of the Coast games Won my one and only Pokemon tournament using only Pikachu and Raichu in the deck - and declaring loudly "PEEE-KAH-CHUUUUU" -- true story.
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. The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. An Aura permanent doesn’t target anything; only the spell is targeted. (An activated or triggered ability of an Aura permanent can also be targeted.)
