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Switch to Forum Live View Planeswalker Points Announcement
2 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 3:32PM #41
Reylance
Date Joined: Jan 28, 2004
Posts: 1,244
I am glad that this new system will not discourage big name players from showing up at FNM.  It might even encourage them to try out more casual decks.  I'm nowhere near pro level myself, but I am at the point where a 3-1 record causes me to lose rating points, so I am discouraged from playing anything but a competitive deck at FNM.

That's the one good thing about the new system.  And it also acknowledges that the Elo system is not truly appropriate for a system with as much inherent variance as Magic.  Overall, I'm not really in favor of the new system, based on my previous experience with this system.

What previous experience?  Well, for about twenty years, the other side of the current DCI organized play system, the RPGA Network, used a points system for its tournament D&D (and other game system) play.  You would sit down at a table with five other players for a four hour game, and at the end of the round, all players would vote for the four best players (not voting for oneself), with 1st through 4th being worth 4, 3, 2, 1 points.  The judge also voted for the four best players, with his votes being worth 8, 6, 4, 2 points.  Add up these points, and you have a ranking from 1-6.  The voting was an attempt to identify who overall played the best, but in effect came down to who was the best role-player.

The table score and an overall judge rating then factored into the results that went into the RPGA's point system.  That formula was never published, but you got somewhere between roughly 100 points (if you got 0 points at the table) and 700 points (if you got 28 points).  There were then multipliers (x2 for a benefit [charity] game, x3 for Masters, x4 for Grand Masters, x5 for Paragon) applied to the points.  The points accumulated, and you attained levels, in a system similar to the AD&D level system, and similar to what we have in today's announcement.  Level 3 (5,250 points) was Masters, level 5 (23,250 points) was Grand Masters, and level 7 (98,250 points) was Paragon.  The named levels qualified you for ranked events, where you played with better players, and traditionally featured more unusual characters and role-playing situations.  (The first Grand Masters event had the players playing sentient magic items.)  There were three separate points categories circa 1997, one for judging, two for playing: Classic (events with pregenerated characters) and Campaign (events where you brought your own character).

You can see that, like the new Magic points system, you never lost points for playing a sanctioned RPGA event.  You accumulated points even if you finished in 6th place.  If you started play in the 1980s, there were few play opportunities, and to reach the named levels required both dedication and talent.  But by the mid 90s, play opportunities abounded.  I was far from the best at extemporaneous role-playing, but I played a lot.  By the time the points system was abandoned, I had the highest total levels (24) in the world, and was probably in the top 10 in total points.  The top-ranked Classic player was level 9, and reached that level with 460 events, placing first in about half of those.  I reached level 9 on the Campaign side, but that was with about twice as many games, and far fewer first place finishes.  This point system did not capture quality at all.

It appears that this Planeswalker Points system will also fail to address quality.  It appears that attending 8 Grand Prix tournaments (with 7 participation points) and finishing 6-3 (fail to make Day 2) will score you 1600 points, while attending 2 events and finishing 12-x (probable Top 32) will get you 688 points.  The only multipliers they mention are for Top 8 at a Pro Tour.  I think, at the very minimum, any event with a Day 2 cutoff needs to have an additional multiplier for those who make Day 2.  I'd also like to see additional multipliers for top 64/32/16, and Top 8 at the Grand Prix and Nationals level.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 3:39PM #42
menard1164
Date Joined: Mar 25, 2006
Posts: 6
Sweet, I'm a level 31 invoker. Unfortunately that doesn't really mean anything.

I understand the need for a system that encourages semi-pro and pro players to play rather than sit on their ratings. I also understand that you want an achievement system for casual players that rewards showing up rather than winning. The problem with this system is that it tries to do two separate things at the same time.

It's fine to encourage people to play lots of events at the local and casual level and this system does a good job of that. It encourages people to play lots, bring friends, and have a good time. It's perfect for a rewards system. Results aren't comparable between areas or anything, because not all areas have the same density of players, availability of fnms or whatever, but it still incentivizes the all right things at the casual and local level. 

These same qualities make it terrible as a rating system. This system does not measure skill at all. Going 8-2 at a ptq is much harder than going 4-6 twice. If the goal is to find the best in the world and invite them to Pro Tours, it doesn't make any sense to use this kind of metric. 
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 3:52PM #43
TobyornotToby
Date Joined: Mar 7, 2006
Posts: 2,280
My biggest problem with this system is that it resets every year. I don't play much, but I steadily improved my rating over the years. Now I would have to play way more every year to make it even matter. Lame.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 4:04PM #44
Qmark
  • vitriol and virtue
Date Joined: May 18, 2002
Posts: 16,487

Sep 6, 2011 -- 3:52PM, TobyornotToby wrote:

My biggest problem with this system is that it resets every year.


O...kay.

Of course this means invites will be based largely on participation, which means Rosewater's secret dream of "fun" (instead of "good") making the Top-8 in a GP or something will finally come true.  Naturally, that will then be used as justification for some illogical ban or yet another staple being labeled "unfun and bad" after several years of relative innocence.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 4:18PM #45
JaxsonBateman
Date Joined: Sep 16, 2009
Posts: 4,176
I personally like this new system, simply because it encourages players being active, rather than inactive, in order to gain as much benefit as possible. And being active also keeps a player sharp and aware of the metagame, which is a good thing. Personally, I've not cared about rating much to this point, but I've set Innistrad as my starting point for getting back into standard, so I'll be looking forward to the change-over in 2012.

I'll be curious to see how a mate of mine responds - not a pro by any means, but he has a decent DCI rating that he's been sitting on, and while he's been grinding out FNMs in order to earn a second bye for GP Brisbane, he often comments about how devastating it is to his rating to lose a single match due to the difference in his DCI rating and his opponent's (and given we usually have draft FNMs in our area luck plays a larger part in the outcome). I'm unsure if he'll be excited for the new system as he'll be able to just play and play and play in order to get those byes, or if he'll be annoyed that he can't raise his level to X amount and then just sit on it.



As an aside, I don't suppose anyone has any idea about how one could sanction casual play for lifetime points? My playgroup plays once or twice a week, usually having about 5 or 6 matches, so it'd be awesome if we could get some points for it. ^^ 
I'm all about super-control in MTG. If you're able to stop my shenanigans, then there aren't enough shenanigans.

Lv 1 Judge

Current Decklists
Sweeping Beauty (Casual)
A Vision of Clones (Casual)
Coming soon... more decks! :-O
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 4:26PM #46
GerhardBerger
Date Joined: May 11, 2011
Posts: 22
I'm a regular FNM player for 2 years and spend all my money on magic.  I love the game and like to keep an eye on my rating versus the other local players.  With this new system is becomes impossible for me to get a ranking as high as players who either:

a) Have played for years more than me
b) Play 2 or 3 events each week

So from an FNM level players point of view the ranking system is broken.

If they don't fix this system I don't see the point of playing anymore and will sadly give up the game.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 4:31PM #47
Leftconsin
  • Waghmonger
Date Joined: Sep 27, 2005
Posts: 3,058
If points are an incentive I have more incentive to attend Friday Night Magic with Islands.dec and conceed every round untill I get the bye than actually trying to play magic on any other day.
Level 2 Magic Judge

Lite a man a fire, warm him for a day. Light a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 4:34PM #48
vtphoenix26
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2005
Posts: 52
Ok, there are a few really important points that I think a lot of people are missing about this:

1) The old rating system was less indicative of skill than it was of who happened to do well at the latest big event. If someone won a GP or PT, suddenly they were listed as number 1 in the world, and sometimes they were someone nobody had ever heard of! And the K-Values meant that a person who did well at a single PTQ (for argument's sake, say they went 6-2) would gain as many points as a player who went 3-1 at 8 FNMs in a row! Now, even though FNMs are easier tournaments, it is much harder to win 75% of the time over the long haul even at FNM than it is to win 75% of the time at one event (even a PTQ or GP). That is the very definition of variance and it's why statistical analysis requires the largest sample size possible. In VT, the highest ranked players are more likely to be the players that go to the most high value events than the "best" players. Admittedly, there is usually a lot of overlap simply because it is usually the best players that care about going to the high value events in the first place.

2) Wizards is not looking to find or prove who the best player is at any given time. They have said this very bluntly in statements in the past. The Pro Tour system is designed to give players something to aspire to and to help encourage interest in Magic so they can sell more packs. I don't see how this is different now. That it is slanted more toward "quantity instead of quality" is actually a positive thing because they are trying to get more people to play the game more often. I'm terribly sorry that you can't play once every six months and qualify for the Pro Tour anymore... (Wait, could you ever really do that? And, oh yeah you still can, it's called PTQs) but why is it bad to have active, enthusiastic players, who might make good ambassadors for the game, qualifying for Pro Tours? Oh and they still have to do well because millions of players play weekly and some live in areas where there's a PTQ every weekend. Participation points aren't going to cut it in and of themself.

3) It's always been difficult to qualify on rating, you had to be the top 100. You still have to be the top 100. Are all the people complaining really in the top 100 often enough so that this change is that significant?

4) FNMs being weighted more than Thursday night drafts etc - Wizards considers FNM the most important play program for "acquisition". Do you guys know what that means? It means they want to "acquire" more consumers of their product. It's not bad for us, we get more people to play/trade with and maybe even our participation/number of rounds will go up a notch so that we all benefit. No business is or should be content merely with the buyers it already has but nowhere do we directly see the benefits of growth like we do in Magic. If Magic wasn't doing well, do you think other businesses like Star City Games and TCG Player would be running their own "Pro Tours"? We reap the rewards then complain that Wizards just wants to make money. Well I just want to have a good time. Nobody is taking advantage of anyone else, it's mutually beneficial for all.

5) People are afraid of new things. Try it out and see if it's decent before you let a fear-response jerk you around like a predictable puppet. "I'm definitely going to sell my cards after this!" people have screamed in impotent rage whenever there's any change but the machinery of good business, a great game, and great players keeps moving on. It'll move on without you if you let it. So sell your Lotuses, Force of Wills, Tarmogoyfs, Jaces, Duals, Fetches or whatever because you're angry. You're the only one that loses in the end. This game is destined to keep growing and succeeding and you'll look back and see that your cards are worth double or triple than what you sold them for because Magic will remain a great game.

In summary, I can't help but wondering why the players that play the least, complain the most. In this case it's obvious because the complaints are: "I don't play much but now I can't random Q on rating, so whatever, I quit (a game I was barely playing anyway)". The main vessel for qualifying for the Pro Tour has always been the PTQ circuit and nothing about that is changed. I personally think competing season to season with other players in my region to see who can be the highest on the leaderboard is going to be a lot of fun. So what if FNMs are scaled high? Only 100 people are going to qualify on rating anyway, out of millions.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 4:34PM #49
Elgore
Date Joined: Nov 14, 2009
Posts: 484

Sep 6, 2011 -- 4:26PM, GerhardBerger wrote:

I'm a regular FNM player for 2 years and spend all my money on magic.  I love the game and like to keep an eye on my rating versus the other local players.  With this new system is becomes impossible for me to get a ranking as high as players who either:

a) Have played for years more than me
b) Play 2 or 3 events each week

So from an FNM level players point of view the ranking system is broken.

If they don't fix this system I don't see the point of playing anymore and will sadly give up the game.




The thing is ytour lifetime points really dont matter. Its all about the competive points you earn per season. Lifetime points are just bragging rights (if you really care about that then thats kinda sad)

I really like the system. It allows players to consistantly play fnm's without losing points and makes it difficult to get on the PT. However if you find a way to make it through rating to the PT you get a plane ticket. It also makes it a bit more difficult to get byes to GP's.

However I want to know the reuirments it takes to get an invite on rating to a Non-Open National Championship. 

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2011 - 4:37PM #50
12three45
Date Joined: Jun 2, 2010
Posts: 256
LSV did a much better job of explaining this. There was way too much emphasis on the lifetime aspect, which is essentially meaningless. If asked, I will pretend I don't know what it is. It is a random bragging  factor at best. I did like that the little bar fills up and flashes like it is a level tracker on a video game. It reminded me of wasted days driving to make it inch farther to the right.

There will be too many GPs now to let the top 8 go to PTs. I get that. I am interested to see how that move affects attendance. They don't really seem 'special' anymore so I am not sure I'll plan to travel to at least one each year anymore. I don't really care about going to a PT, but it was at least fun to know 8 slots were on the line in very nice venues as opposed to the dumps PTQs are held in. It seems like they should count as a PTQ with the winner getting an invite so that it is more important to win the GP than the PTQ that is run the next day for all the folks that scrub out of Day 1.
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