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2 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2011 - 1:03PM
#71
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2003
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I'm dead serious when I say that griping about goyf would cease on a massive scale if it only costed $15.
This is spot on.
QFT.
I say reprint the MoFo into oblivion like they did with Birds of Paradise  . Except, if they change the art and give it a normal cardface then the originals will retain much of their value and the people who whine about their "investment" will be happy.
The more people playing a format the better.
Cheaper prices = more players.
How is this a bad thing?
"There are some who call me...Tim?"
Go Duke!
I apologize for my lack of grammar, spelling, and coherence in my posts.
Former Member: Team ABS
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2 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2011 - 1:19PM
#72
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2008
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Not to pick on you, but I groan inwardly every time someone rattles off banned cards as an excuse for why control
I was almost agreeing with you there. If only you had said "Modern" instead of "control".
Yes, Modern has a big card pool, but it's still finite, and people know what's in it. If, in the sets that make it up, Wizards has generally been very cautious about Control as being "unfun", and some of the better control cards that have slipped through recently have been banned, there's no reason why the format can't be biased against one particular deck archetype.
Not to mention that the other archetypes can netdeck, but control can't. Which is another huge advantage. But that also says that even the big boys couldn't make control work. So why are you expecting little old ordinary player so-and-so to be able to do it?
I'm not against the banned list, because making Modern work is the first priority. As long as it's got at least three viable archetypes, control doesn't have to be one of them for the format to be healthy.
Of course, in Modern's huge card pool, there are a lot of different counterspells, even if none of them are as efficient as one might like. If only there was a blue version of Dark Ritual  ... what is there in blue mana accel? Or splash Green for Tarmogoyf  , but don't forget Birds of Paradise while you're at it...
Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!  I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2011 - 1:33PM
#73
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Date Joined:
Oct 14, 2007
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For the moment, Goyf is fine, but I don't think we should approach the format in such a short-sighted manner. Regardless "it will be what it will be" as they say. My point isn't that "Goyf is too powerful to be a Magic card", it's that when taken off of the kitchen table in it's own deck, Goyf gets too big, too fast and oppresses too many decks to be healthy for a t3.5-4 based format, no matter "how powerful" said format is.
I can tell you from experience that this is simply not true. Goyf is just fine in high-powered formats ecause of non-synergy. Goyf will literally never be "broken" because vanilla creatures CANNOT, by definition, be broken unless they are printed as such. Heck, there's a reason that there is no vanilla creature on any banlist anywhere. Goyf dies to pretty much every black removal spell that people might even consider running (DB, GFTT, Smother), and every other generic creature removal spell that exists. It is nothing more than a beater. Now, if it were a printed "5/6 for 1G," then it would certainly be too good, but it's not. Goyf scales pretty consistently as the game goes on, but it usually cannot be dropped on turn 2 and actually be more than 3/4, even in decks built to feed it (which are pointless with the number of decks that run the card).
There is also the fact that Goyf NEEDS to exist in higher-power formats. He gives every deck a way to finish quickly (usually 4-5 turns max), which is REALLY important in formats that allow for true combo decks. Furthermore, he allows midrange decks a way to compete with both power-aggro (zoo) and control while still having a real sideboard for combo. As someone who does not support "Rock-Paper-Scissors" formats, I must say that this is a good thing.
My blog (everyone else is doing it...): http://ideas-abounding.blogspot.com/ "Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong. Paper, rock, and scissors, they all have their pros and cons." - Relient K DISCLAIMER: I'm not a nice person. MOTL Sale List: http://www.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/087367.html#0  Sig by the modest, yet talented, zpikduM.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2011 - 3:07PM
#74
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2010
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Perhaps, but I don't think it's "vanillla" either because of it's scalability. Yes, it doesn't trample, fly, blink or any other tricks, but more often than not, raw damage outweighs the importance of any of those. It isn't Leatherback Baloth  , so I can't see how it's "vanilla" enough not to be a threat to the format's balance. It doesn't loop an infinite combo, it doesn't play out for free, but it does violate quite a bit of the cost-effectiveness which stabilizes Magic, therefore the "Vanilla, so it can't be broken" argument sounds shaky to me (it's by far the best scaling creature available, but I don't know if scaling is the same as vanilla). Once again though, it isn't so much the card itself as the format it is surrounded by. Golgari Grave-Troll  is less of a threatening scaler, and it only scales down to regenerate (but that's because the card itself costs fairly to cast and costs for it's regeneration). I appreciate the mature approach to discussing it though xD I hate discussions about things like this that degenerate into "no, you're a bad card"
Signature by 
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2 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2011 - 3:41PM
#75
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2009
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At this point, you're simply re-phrasing your argument. The bottom line is that it IS a vanilla dude, and R&D is completely ok with there being a "goyf test" in the eternal formats, i.e. your deck needs to be able to answer or safely ignore goyf. goyf gets no bigger than a leatherback baloth for 90% of all modern magic games anyways, so it's not like he's presenting an unacceptable P/T when, as S1AL pointed out, he's just as fragile as most other creatures when it comes to removal.
This is the biggest indicator that goyf isn't broken - When presented with the option, most opponents will choose to remove something like gaddock teeg, kavu predator, or KOTR from the board before they choose to remove goyf, precisely because goyf represents an incremental threat, whereas non-vanilla dudes like the ones I listed have abilities that can cause you to just lose the game.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2011 - 3:43PM
#76
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Perhaps, but I don't think it's "vanillla" either because of it's scalability. Yes, it doesn't trample, fly, blink or any other tricks, but more often than not, raw damage outweighs the importance of any of those. It isn't Leatherback Baloth , so I can't see how it's "vanilla" enough not to be a threat to the format's balance. It doesn't loop an infinite combo, it doesn't play out for free, but it does violate quite a bit of the cost-effectiveness which stabilizes Magic, therefore the "Vanilla, so it can't be broken" argument sounds shaky to me (it's by far the best scaling creature available, but I don't know if scaling is the same as vanilla). Once again though, it isn't so much the card itself as the format it is surrounded by. Golgari Grave-Troll is less of a threatening scaler, and it only scales down to regenerate (but that's because the card itself costs fairly to cast and costs for it's regeneration).
I appreciate the mature approach to discussing it though xD I hate discussions about things like this that degenerate into "no, you're a bad card"
I'm not sure but did you just insinuate that Golgari Grave-Troll is banned because of it's scaling?
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK!
"ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day  ..."
"MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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2 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2011 - 6:20PM
#77
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2010
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I'm not sure but did you just insinuate that Golgari Grave-Troll is banned because of it's scaling?
Oh hell no xD I was just using it as an example of a banned card that scales (but the card itself is banned because of how well it dredges, I got that much).
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2 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2011 - 6:56PM
#78
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2008
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If only there was a blue version of Dark Ritual ...
Go die in a fire.
How about you give me back my black version first?
 Boasts?
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2011 States Top 4
Designer of Top 8 States finishing MBC decks in 2011, 2010, and 2009
Standard Forum - Iron Deck Builder Season One Champ
"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter "It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes
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2 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2011 - 8:47PM
#79
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2003
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I feel like we've missed the fact that leatherback baloth  costs  while tarmogoyf  costs  and yet both have the same P/T 90% of the time. One clearly "breaks" the cost/power ratio of magic. The card is a mistake and is broken. * That does not mean it should be banned* Broken does not (and should not) equal banned. But pretending it isn't broken just to argue it isn't banworthy is just silly. The problem with the card is that it costs $80 of real money per card. If everyone had acess to this "vanilla" creature then no one would be calling for its banning; no one would be discussing its brokenness; and everyone would be playing it. I paid $20 for each of my birds of paradise  back when they were worth $20. All of them are now worth, at most, $4. Why? Partly because WotC reprinted it in every core set. Partly because they printed a card called Noble Hierarch  so that Birds of Paradise are obselete. You know what though? Beta BoPs are still $200 and Alpha are still $250. So why do people even care if WotC reprints stuff? Original printings continue to be worth significant amounts. Especially if they change the card face and art. Reprint the dang card. Accessibility = health.
"There are some who call me...Tim?"
Go Duke!
I apologize for my lack of grammar, spelling, and coherence in my posts.
Former Member: Team ABS
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2 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2011 - 9:04PM
#80
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2006
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... One clearly "breaks" the cost/power ratio of magic. The card is a mistake and is broken...
Reprint the dang card. Accessibility = health.
IMO a broken card is one that totaly warps the format like JTMS and stoneforge mystic did to standard, but also a card that is broken in a more limited format is not broken in an eternal format with a much larger card pool. In a format with manlands that can connect once for leathal damage in a single swing on turn 2 i do not think goyf is anywhere near broken.... at all. If you gave his hexproof/shroud you would might have a different story but his lack of keywords makes him easily taken care of enough that he should not be considered broken in any eternal format.
From what i quoted it looks like what the real issue of the card is that it is good and you, along with everyone else who wants to play goyf but does not have them already, want him to either se massive reprint so he gets cheap or to see him banned so you have a good excuse to not pay for it.
Personaly i do not want it to be reprinted, or at least not reprinted often, becasue i want my playset to hold its value XD
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