Community

In other words, a bunch of 8-16 person groups who didn't have a single idea of what was going on can't compare to 400 pro or semi-pro players working to break a format.

Of course, now that the format has been broken, they can move onto un-breaking it. Invention, Innovation, Competition, Optimization, Stagnation. Rinse, Repeat. 

Sep 6, 2011 -- 6:38PM, S1AL wrote:

Truth is, I'm giving it better-than-even odds that 'Goyf is reprinted in Dark Ascension or Set 3 of the block.

Here's the reality: The mose expensive competitive Modern decks are still about the same price as the cheapest tier-2 Legacy deck (Merfolk, which is $600+ for a proper list). 

I agree, Goyf will probably be reprinted.  It's really the only card in Modern that is going for the price of Legacy staples, but that's because it IS a Legacy staple.

I just looked at a price site.  The top 4 Modern decks at Philly had an average cost of about $760 using the HIGH prices.

Looking at the top 4 decks of the last Legacy event posted on the same site, the average cost of the decks was about $1450 using the LOW prices.

That's a pretty wide gap in prices.  Combine that with probable reprints for any staples that get out of hand, and Modern should remain vastly cheaper than Legacy.  And there is no way they un-ban Jace, TMS.  They do not WANT to reprint Jace.  The whole point of the new Modern format was to have a non-rotational set where all of the cards could be reprinted if they wished. 

Sep 6, 2011 -- 7:02PM, S1AL wrote:

In other words, a bunch of 8-16 person groups who didn't have a single idea of what was going on can't compare to 400 pro or semi-pro players working to break a format.

This is exactly it.

When Legacy split from Vintage we had the Source....and that's it. Vintage, honestly had already been extremely streamlined, and remains so today (thanks to things going as far back as the Dojo and continuing today on The Mana Drain). There isn't a whole lot of innovation there because there just isn't room for it. It had reached that state (or just about reached it) by 2004. Legacy was a breath of fresh air from Vintage because of that. There wasn't a lot of dicussion about it besides here and the Source, and for a long time the metagame was up in the air. The format was wide open and it felt wide open.

Modern was supposed to do the same thing. Except it never actually felt wide open. It was never given a chance to be when you make the pros play it. They aren't going to bring their jank pet deck to the pro tour because they have some sort of nostalgic attachment to it and there is finally a format they can play it in.

So, yeah. Modern is successful, I guess, insofar as it does provide an alternative to the other eternal formats. And it has the people who can't afford duals and FoW, etc. excited. But there is no mystery behind it, which is what made Legacy so much fun when it started. It felt like the old days of Magic, when things weren't about statistics and the next chase mythic. Modern feels like a format specifically about those sorts of things.

Meh, I'm just droning on like some disenfranchised geezer pining for the simpler times.

Sep 6, 2011 -- 8:02PM, supa_tim wrote:

Sep 6, 2011 -- 7:02PM, S1AL wrote:

In other words, a bunch of 8-16 person groups who didn't have a single idea of what was going on can't compare to 400 pro or semi-pro players working to break a format.

This is exactly it.

When Legacy split from Vintage we had the Source....and that's it. Vintage, honestly had already been extremely streamlined, and remains so today (thanks to things going as far back as the Dojo and continuing today on The Mana Drain). There isn't a whole lot of innovation there because there just isn't room for it. It had reached that state (or just about reached it) by 2004. Legacy was a breath of fresh air from Vintage because of that. There wasn't a lot of dicussion about it besides here and the Source, and for a long time the metagame was up in the air. The format was wide open and it felt wide open.

Modern was supposed to do the same thing. Except it never actually felt wide open. It was never given a chance to be when you make the pros play it. They aren't going to bring their jank pet deck to the pro tour because they have some sort of nostalgic attachment to it and there is finally a format they can play it in.

So, yeah. Modern is successful, I guess, insofar as it does provide an alternative to the other eternal formats. And it has the people who can't afford duals and FoW, etc. excited. But there is no mystery behind it, which is what made Legacy so much fun when it started. It felt like the old days of Magic, when things weren't about statistics and the next chase mythic. Modern feels like a format specifically about those sorts of things.

Meh, I'm just droning on like some disenfranchised geezer pining for the simpler times.

This is simply the effect of of the internet on all competitve games, be they card games or video games. The internet accelerates discovery and sharing of information, and things like Magic Online, and adding net play to fighting games gives you access to a competitve playground at any time to test things.  I see the same types of comments on Shoryuken.com regarding fighting games that took the better part of a decade to completely figure out in the past, are now craked in a ocuple of months.  There will never be slow development of the meta in any competive game ever again.

Sep 6, 2011 -- 6:38PM, S1AL wrote:

Truth is, I'm giving it better-than-even odds that 'Goyf is reprinted in Dark Ascension or Set 3 of the block.

That would be great for us players, but I doubt it will happen. Grim Lavamancer and Nantuko Shade are one thing, Tarmogoyf is quite another, everything above $50 probably belongs in an FTV. A Standard reprint might actually mean the price would go up because of huge demand from Standard players, like with Solemn Simulacrum.

Besides, Lhurgoyf s apparently live on Dominaria. What would one be doing on Innistrad (or Ravnica, where we supposedly go afterwards)? Being an otherwordly invasive species? Silly things like this seem to matter to the design team.

You know how people complaining about Legacy and say it's a format all about combo kills in the first 3 turns because they know nothing about the format? Well Modern is basically the bad format ignorant people think Legacy is.

Sep 7, 2011 -- 4:21AM, makochman wrote:

That would be great for us players, but I doubt it will happen. Grim Lavamancer and Nantuko Shade are one thing, Tarmogoyf is quite another, everything above $50 probably belongs in an FTV.

Do you have any idea how baseless that claim is? It essentially flies in the face of R&D's reprint selection process. If that's not clear enough - the value of an existing card has ZERO bearing on whether or not it gets reprinted. WotC bases their reprints off of customer demand, flavor, interesting gameplay, and nostalgia.

You know how people complaining about Legacy and say it's a format  all about combo kills in the first 3 turns because they know nothing  about the format? Well Modern is basically the bad format ignorant  people think Legacy is.

I think disruption was criminally neglected in the Philly PT, though the resilience of zoo and 12-post had more to do with that than anything else. Modern is doing an outstanding job at illustrating the need for better black disruption. If R&D still thinks random discard is too "un-fun", then they need to start combining jester's cap effects into thoughtseize effects. for inquisition of kozilek + surgical extraction on the same card seems relevant without being broken.

Without making it sound like a Vietnam flashback or something, "You weren't there". There was plenty of disruption decks, Jund running Molten Rains, 6 discard spells, slaughter pact to kill pestermite etc, and still, they were getting stomped.

I watched one of the few control players curve from thoughtseize, into DC, into V. Clique, then sit on counterspells for a few turns and they were just dead to twin-combo. The twin combo deck is entirely focussed on getting the combo and protecting it, and they can run more of each piece along with better protection spells. Disrupting Shoals were sold out at $15 Friday morning, which was interesting.

The cards you need to beat each combo deck are wildly different from each other, and can sometimes not make a difference. I saw Teeg out against a Cloudpost deck(stopping scapeshift), so the player(David Williams) just cast Summer bloom with Amulet on board and dropped his Gruul Turf three times to generate six mana and set up turn four Emrakul.

Watching a zoo player trying to put up an effective enough clock agaisnt Twin to sit back on counterspells is a farce, Josh's efforts were admirable, but it was always a losing battle.

With ponder and preordain, it's so easy to play around dirsuption for the combo decks, there is no incentive to run a non-combo deck at the moment, since combo decks like 12 post have a better and easier late game, as well as the ability to turn 3 hardcast emrakul, or turn two through the breach Emrakul.

Sep 7, 2011 -- 5:38AM, Razorgore wrote:

the value of an existing card has ZERO bearing on whether or not it gets reprinted. WotC bases their reprints off of customer demand, flavor, interesting gameplay, and nostalgia.

I'll agree when they reprint Bob and Goyf in a widely available product. Or FoW, Wasteland, SoFaI, Vindicate, Polluted Delta... Customer demand for these cards is huge (and has been for a long long time), the price is indicative of that; subjective criteria such as interesting gameplay aren't enough to explain why we're not seeing these reprints. As of today, expensive old cards are at best getting the FTV or judge promo treatment. The cheaper ones are being reprinted in Standard and duel decks, very sparingly.

I want to know what kind of bad control player curved into 5 power worth of creatures and then lost a few turns later with a hand full of countermagic.

I just read through the whole conversation.

If I remember correctly, Tarmogoyf is one of those Future Sight cards with the special design that meant that they may or may not be reprinted in the future, in the same or different colors.

I most certainly hope that tarmogoyf gets banned in modern and more control/disruption cards for modern (but not legacy) are printed. For me, this is the best-case senario.

The worst case senario would be for tarmogoyf to be reprinted as a blue creature. Anyone else having nightmares?

Meh. So far I don't like modern. I most certainly prefer Legacy. As CyrusBales very correctly said; "You know how people complaining about Legacy and say it's a format all  about combo kills in the first 3 turns because they know nothing about  the format? Well Modern is basically the bad format ignorant people  think Legacy is.".

This is what modern is. A format full of combo decks (some of them really nice, I like combo decks, don't get me wrong) and Tarmogoyf s. There is no balance yet, while legacy is a really balanced format, where turn-1/2/3 kills are easily disrupted and you have to figure out a more solid tactic.

Reprinting wasteland would go a long way in balancing the format... *braces for fallout*

I'm sure we've only seen the tip-of the iceberg for how Wizards will regulate Modern. I'm pretty sure they don't want all these combo decks running around. Nor do they want Zoo (and affinity? lol) to be the only viable aggro deck. We'll see bannings, unbannings, and Modern specific cards in the near future.

Wasteland is too strong for Modern.

I love Modern. I hope nothing changes for a while.

This format is excellent.   

Sep 7, 2011 -- 4:45PM, Islands wrote:

I love Modern. I hope nothing changes for a while.

This format is excellent.   

X 2

I want ancestral visions, mental misstep and stoneforge unbanned though!

I belive the banhammer on stoneforge is going to be stuck on the on setting, considering it gets played in vintage AND legacy. With bannings in standard and modern meaning its JUST THAT GOOD. You do know how hard it is to get a standard creature card to be good in those formats right? The last 2 were goyf and confidant. You do know that the old cawblade lists can compete in older formats with only a few bits changing here and there. Im GLAD modern isnt the return to the old cawblade decks that had early middle and lategame inevitability to them. I can live in a format like this where were still testing out the waters on what we all want to get to.

I think there is good argument for Vesuva and Goyf to see the banhammer simply because Vesuva empowers ANY land far too well (lands are power in Magic, afterall), and Goyf is just super- Blastoderm most of the time. Both cards are innocent enough within their design space, but push the upper limit of "where we should go", since clone-lands and non-specific graveyard effects are just bad news in competitive settings.

And on the other side, I think there is good argument for many objects to get off of the banlist (though I'm not quite convinced that Stoneforge Mystic , Sensei's Divining Top or Umezawa's Jitte are the best choices)

If goyf gets banned, I will seriously question the judgement of WotC. Goyf is a generic beater for 2. Every colour besides blue has a good answer for a generic dude for 2.

If anything gets unbanned, Ancestral Visions needs to be unbanned, along with Bitterblossom. Control barely stands a chance without the sheer CA that is Ancestral Visions. 

Sep 8, 2011 -- 1:20AM, zpikduM wrote:

If goyf gets banned, I will seriously question the judgement of WotC. Goyf is a generic beater for 2. Every colour besides blue has a good answer for a generic dude for 2.

If anything gets unbanned, Ancestral Visions needs to be unbanned, along with Bitterblossom. Control barely stands a chance without the sheer CA that is Ancestral Visions. 

visions I can see comming off. I find it not that particularly damning of a card. On the other hand I doubt blossom will since its very broken to get a 1/1 body that evades, which when played with the rest of a fae deck gets abusive very quickly.

Why are they so worried about stoneforge when post, pyromancer, splinter are winning in 3 or 4 turns. We need more solid aggro control cards.  They worried about a 3rd turn batterskull but who cares about a 4th turn emrakul or 24 goblin tokens or 10000 splinter tokens

Sep 8, 2011 -- 3:41AM, jblaze4lif82 wrote:

Why are they so worried about stoneforge when post, pyromancer, splinter are winning in 3 or 4 turns. We need more solid aggro control cards.  They worried about a 3rd turn batterskull but who cares about a 4th turn emrakul or 24 goblin tokens or 10000 splinter tokens

I personally don't want the game to go in the opposite extreme of the current modern's meta or stay at the current state. Cawblade was a lot like raffinity was in morrodin/onslaught meta where you either played cawblade or a red deck, and the red decks didn't often do so well.

I agree with unbanning visions, it might help control against the current field. If they are against unbanning visions then I would hope that they do something to lower the power of the current meta of combo or gtfo.

Islands only likes the format because it's the one format where his pet deck, Pyromancer's Ascension, is a good deck :P

Seriosuly though, I found the WOTC coverage very amusing and the meta breakdown today trying to make it look fair by lumping all the bad builds of decks with good builds to drag their numbers down, and using small sample sizes.

If the banlist doesn't change for the modern PTQ season, I suspect it will be just as bad a season as Extended was. Which is a shame, since I was really excited about the format, and the PT just ended up being a bit of a joke, and my expection for a Japanese player to come up with a super sick gifts control deck was a failure.

Sep 8, 2011 -- 1:20AM, zpikduM wrote:

If goyf gets banned, I will seriously question the judgement of WotC. Goyf is a generic beater for 2. Every colour besides blue has a good answer for a generic dude for 2.
 

It makes other bears unplayable, and the "it dies to removal" is the same bad argument to support not banning EVERY broken creature. Generic, not so much though because it scales by rewarding you for playing every type of permanent and temporary as quickly as possible, so I don't see how it would be bad judgment to get rid of a card which throws the cost = effect balance far more out of whack than even artifact lands.

As for Ancestral Visions though, I don't really understand why they banned it in the first place (since all it does is replenishes the hand after several turns)

Sep 8, 2011 -- 7:14AM, CyrusBales wrote:

Islands only likes the format because it's the one format where his pet deck, Pyromancer's Ascension, is a good deck :P

Seriosuly though, I found the WOTC coverage very amusing and the meta breakdown today trying to make it look fair by lumping all the bad builds of decks with good builds to drag their numbers down, and using small sample sizes.

If the banlist doesn't change for the modern PTQ season, I suspect it will be just as bad a season as Extended was. Which is a shame, since I was really excited about the format, and the PT just ended up being a bit of a joke, and my expection for a Japanese player to come up with a super sick gifts control deck was a failure.

YOU LIE THEY DID MAKE A GIFTS CONTROL DECK AND THEY DIDN'T SHARE IT.

LIAR! YOU'LL SEE THEY WILL BE ALL, "OH YEA LOL HERES A GIFTS CONTROL DECK."

AND IT WILL BE AWESOME.

I can dream.

Sep 8, 2011 -- 7:38AM, Wynzerman wrote:

As for Ancestral Visions though, I don't really understand why they banned it in the first place (since all it does is replenishes the hand after several turns)

I seriously hate how no one seems to understand this, it's very simple.

Guess how much money Ancestal Visions makes WotC?

Zero cents.

Guess how much money Visions of Beyond gets them?

Sep 8, 2011 -- 7:14AM, CyrusBales wrote:

Islands only likes the format because it's the one format where his pet deck, Pyromancer's Ascension, is a good deck :P

I thought he was prouder for his Infect/Trash Truck deck...

Sep 8, 2011 -- 7:38AM, Wynzerman wrote:

Sep 8, 2011 -- 1:20AM, zpikduM wrote:

If goyf gets banned, I will seriously question the judgement of WotC. Goyf is a generic beater for 2. Every colour besides blue has a good answer for a generic dude for 2.
 

It makes other bears unplayable, and the "it dies to removal" is the same bad argument to support not banning EVERY broken creature. Generic, not so much though because it scales by rewarding you for playing every type of permanent and temporary as quickly as possible, so I don't see how it would be bad judgment to get rid of a card which throws the cost = effect balance far more out of whack than even artifact lands.

As for Ancestral Visions though, I don't really understand why they banned it in the first place (since all it does is replenishes the hand after several turns)

Goyf may make almost every other 2 drop creature unplayable, but banning goyf makes any deck revolving around creatures unplayable. Seriously, the reason Goyf has not been banned is because creature decks are just unplayable without him in powerful formats. Wild Nacatl makes 99.9% of 1 drops unplayble too, but again, without it creature decks are unplayable.

I think it is a ridiculous stretch to say Goyf makes aggro valid. Playing an aggro deck without Goyf makes your deck weaker, but not invalid. And it is certainly playable. Your replacement creature may end up with 1 less power over the course of a game because Goyf will often get to 4/5.

I'd never claim Watchwolf is better than Goyf, but its a darn serviceable replacement in Zoo if you don't have $360 for 4 cards. A 3/3 for 2 is strong enough to get many jobs done.

Zoo would probably shift to more tribal in Goyf's absence... like elves.

Ultimately I don't think banning goyf changes any damn thing. It just fixes prices for Modern decks.

Sep 8, 2011 -- 3:27PM, Niche wrote:

I think it is a ridiculous stretch to say Goyf makes aggro valid. Playing an aggro deck without Goyf makes your deck weaker, but not invalid. And it is certainly playable. Your replacement creature may end up with 1 less power over the course of a game because Goyf will often get to 4/5.

I'd never claim Watchwolf is better than Goyf, but its a darn serviceable replacement in Zoo if you don't have $360 for 4 cards. A 3/3 for 2 is strong enough to get many jobs done.

Zoo would probably shift to more tribal in Goyf's absence... like elves.

Ultimately I don't think banning goyf changes any damn thing. It just fixes prices for Modern decks.

You can't have it both ways. Either Goyf is neccessary in which case you need to shell out $360, or it's not and you can play watchwolf. You cant change positions halfway through your argument. Either Zoo would drasticaly have to change without goyf or it would not. Either Goyf is essential to the archetypes presence in the format or not. If it is then goyf cannot be banned without removing that archetype, if it is not then you can play all the other options.

Any creatures who can only tap to attack with no ETB or other abiltiies do not need to be banned in formats as powerful as Modern / Legacy. Yeah it's a little dumb control can so easily splash him for a finisher, but big deal. The combo decks are so fast and doing things that are completely unfair, any creature that needs to wait to attack and can only attack , has no protection from any form or removal, has no evasion, no recursion, no card advantage, or does anything bu beat face ...does not need to be banned.

Sep 8, 2011 -- 3:27PM, Niche wrote:

I think it is a ridiculous stretch to say Goyf makes aggro valid. Playing an aggro deck without Goyf makes your deck weaker, but not invalid. And it is certainly playable. Your replacement creature may end up with 1 less power over the course of a game because Goyf will often get to 4/5.

I'd never claim Watchwolf is better than Goyf, but its a darn serviceable replacement in Zoo if you don't have $360 for 4 cards. A 3/3 for 2 is strong enough to get many jobs done.

Zoo would probably shift to more tribal in Goyf's absence... like elves.

Ultimately I don't think banning goyf changes any damn thing. It just fixes prices for Modern decks.

If Zoo wasn't a top-tier deck, then your argument might hold water. Unfortunately, the reality is that running anything other than goyf in the mirror is going to lose you games. If anything, not having goyf should direct you to lists that don't really rely too heavily on the 2-drop. Kavu Justice and Bant control can both get away with fewer (or zero) goyfs.

I like Modern because it is a fair format.

Watch how the metagame adapts before you call for silly snap decisions.

Gemstone Caverns and Disrupting Shoal will be hawt. 

Sep 8, 2011 -- 4:34PM, Islands wrote:

Disrupting Shoal will be hawt. 

I think Legacy Lite is the last thing Tom LaPille would want.

Sep 9, 2011 -- 5:32AM, makochman wrote:

Sep 8, 2011 -- 4:34PM, Islands wrote:

Disrupting Shoal will be hawt. 

I think Legacy Lite is the last thing Tom LaPille would want.

Totally!

I can't wait until Modern is watered down to a boring control format.  Whooo! Control mirrors all day!  

Clearly this format can't last.  I like it too much.

You need all the expensive cards.  We can't let you get away without running Thoughtseize, Bob, Goyf, or Clique.

No, we need to nerf Ponder, Peer, and Preordain.

I hate kneejerk reactions.

Clearly I need to itemize my points for those of you who cannot follow a chain of thought.

1. Goyf is one of the best creatures/2drops ever printed.
2. Zoo is a fantastic deck.
3. Zoo has 56 other cards that make it a fantastic deck without Goyf.
4. 56 card Zoo + 4 Watchwolf (as an example) works just fine. 56 card Zoo + Goyf is nominally better.
5. Banning Tarmogoyf does not invalidate Zoo, because Zoo can work just fine without Goyf. All this does is lower the cost of Zoo by $360 USD.

I agree that Kavu is a great example of a replacement 2 drop that takes you into a punishing fire Zoo build nicely. The Bant decks however probably work better with Goyf than without.

Banning a vanilla creature that grows in small amounts throughout the course of a game is just an outcry from people without wallets or creativity.

@Niche: Goyf is not necessary for, but there is no suitable repacement, and Goyf IS necessary for a lot of control and aggro-control lists. Banning Goyf doesn't make the format better AT ALL, and therefore it should not/will not be done.

Sep 9, 2011 -- 6:01AM, Islands wrote:

Sep 9, 2011 -- 5:32AM, makochman wrote:

Sep 8, 2011 -- 4:34PM, Islands wrote:

Disrupting Shoal will be hawt. 

I think Legacy Lite is the last thing Tom LaPille would want.

Totally!

I can't wait until Modern is watered down to a boring control format.  Whooo! Control mirrors all day!  

Clearly this format can't last.  I like it too much.

You need all the expensive cards.  We can't let you get away without running Thoughtseize, Bob, Goyf, or Clique.

No, we need to nerf Ponder, Peer, and Preordain.

I hate kneejerk reactions.

And I hate ignorant statements. You act as if banning something like shoal is going to remove combo from the format, which is simply untrue. Pyro ascension, living end, splinter twin, and project melira would all still exist.

You want to know what doesn't exist right now? Mid-range. Control. The best version of the only top-tier control deck in the field is now running through the breach so they can compete with combo.

I'd love to see combo taken down a notch, simply to increase the diversity of the field. Seismic Loam and Death Cloud lists are a hair away from being viable, as is most blue-based control lists. Hell, it's almost at the point where Big Bad Jace could go a long way towards making the field more diverse.

Sep 9, 2011 -- 4:22PM, Razorgore wrote:

Sep 9, 2011 -- 6:01AM, Islands wrote:

Sep 9, 2011 -- 5:32AM, makochman wrote:

Sep 8, 2011 -- 4:34PM, Islands wrote:

Disrupting Shoal will be hawt. 

I think Legacy Lite is the last thing Tom LaPille would want.

Totally!

I can't wait until Modern is watered down to a boring control format.  Whooo! Control mirrors all day!  

Clearly this format can't last.  I like it too much.

You need all the expensive cards.  We can't let you get away without running Thoughtseize, Bob, Goyf, or Clique.

No, we need to nerf Ponder, Peer, and Preordain.

I hate kneejerk reactions.

And I hate ignorant statements. You act as if banning something like shoal is going to remove combo from the format, which is simply untrue. Pyro ascension, living end, splinter twin, and project melira would all still exist.

You want to know what doesn't exist right now? Mid-range. Control. The best version of the only top-tier control deck in the field is now running through the breach so they can compete with combo.

I'd love to see combo taken down a notch, simply to increase the diversity of the field. Seismic Loam and Death Cloud lists are a hair away from being viable, as is most blue-based control lists. Hell, it's almost at the point where Big Bad Jace could go a long way towards making the field more diverse.

Second that.

And come on, I said that before, Islands is really happy because he can now block the punches of his angered, infected opponents.

There's nothing bad with combo decks as long as they're fair. But there's a big, BIG problem if one format is all about combo decks. I mean ok, I love combo decks too but not everyone is like me. There are people who like control decks, aggro decks, mid-tempo decks etc. A format should have diversity, it shouldn't be one-sided. And modern really is one-sided right now.

Razorgore-

Without goyf, Zoo matchups would probably be determined by Knight of the Reliquary or Kavu Predator . But the card doesn't need to be banned because of meta demand, even though Zoo is freakishly strong, but because the card is just absolutely busted, and has proven so for quite a while. It makes more games of solitaire than it does interactive Magic, and it even got it's fair shake. So let's say Cloudpost (or Vesuva ), and Blazing Shoal get the banhammer, then Goyf becomes even more oppressive; it simply creates a "next level" issue, which was an issue a year and a half ago in Extended, accept on a larger scale.

Sep 9, 2011 -- 7:45PM, Wynzerman wrote:

Razorgore-

Without goyf, Zoo matchups would probably be determined by Knight of the Reliquary or Kavu Predator . But the card doesn't need to be banned because of meta demand, even though Zoo is freakishly strong, but because the card is just absolutely busted, and has proven so for quite a while. It makes more games of solitaire than it does interactive Magic, and it even got it's fair shake. So let's say Cloudpost (or Vesuva ), and Blazing Shoal get the banhammer, then Goyf becomes even more oppressive; it simply creates a "next level" issue, which was an issue a year and a half ago in Extended, accept on a larger scale.

There is literally nothing busted about goyf. It certainly represents the upper limit of acceptable efficiency for vanilla creatures, but goyf is exactly that - an efficient vanilla creature. Goyf is often the hammer in a lot of decks, but he's hardly the engine of any given deck, the way pestermite/exarch can be, or noble hierarch can be.

I'm dead serious when I say that griping about goyf would cease on a massive scale if it only costed $15.

Sep 10, 2011 -- 2:41AM, Razorgore wrote:

I'm dead serious when I say that griping about goyf would cease on a massive scale if it only costed $15.

This is spot on.

I'm assuming WotC intends to reprint Goyf... I mean, part of the reason for creating Modern is that it allows for a format where any absurdly expensive staple can be reprinted to drop prices. That, and talk about "headliners." You could reprint Goyf as a god damn rare and still sell an extra 50% boosters from that set.

Sep 10, 2011 -- 8:29AM, S1AL wrote:

I'm assuming WotC intends to reprint Goyf... I mean, part of the reason for creating Modern is that it allows for a format where any absurdly expensive staple can be reprinted to drop prices. That, and talk about "headliners." You could reprint Goyf as a god damn rare and still sell an extra 50% boosters from that set.

Or they could reprint it mythic cus **** you (magic players).

Sep 10, 2011 -- 2:41AM, Razorgore wrote:

I'm dead serious when I say that griping about goyf would cease on a massive scale if it only costed $15.

That's true, but a lot of the interest in Magic would go away if expensive cards kept suddenly turning cheap. Even if they're not covered by the Reprint Policy.

Ultimately, CCGs are naturally expensive games to play.

Sep 10, 2011 -- 6:29PM, izgor wrote:

Sep 10, 2011 -- 8:29AM, S1AL wrote:

I'm assuming WotC intends to reprint Goyf... I mean, part of the reason for creating Modern is that it allows for a format where any absurdly expensive staple can be reprinted to drop prices. That, and talk about "headliners." You could reprint Goyf as a god damn rare and still sell an extra 50% boosters from that set.

Or they could reprint it mythic cus **** you (magic players).

A huge vanilla beater doesn't feel mythic. Theres no storyline attache to it, no special abilities, no set unique abilities. Just a vanilla beater would be rare at best.

Islands:  the format is nowhere near turning into a control dominated format.  Right now, it's aggro, which is packing goyf, bob, KOTR, and ravager, combo, which is packing pact of negation, tons of legacy-grade card selection, and 2x both pieces of twin combo, and 12post, which is packing 12 posts, eldrazi, and through the breach.  Meanwhile, control has no jtms and no FOW.  Every deck except control has legacy staples legal in it, while control has to deal with t2 kills from infect, the modern equivalent of valakut, and every efficient aggro creature ever printed (except kird ape).

Kird Ape is modern legal.

oh yeah, he got reprinted in 9th.

so, that's grim lavamancer, wild nacatl, tarmogoyf, steppe lynx, kird ape, loam lion, KOTR, wooly thoctar, watchwold, kavu predator, lightning bolt, path to exile, lightning helix, and incinerate all modern legal.

combo has pact of negation, disrupting shoal, ponder, preordain, empty the warrens, pyromancer ascension, blazing shoal, pestermite, deceiver exarch, splinter twin, kiki-jiki, mirror breaker, melira, sylvok outcast, pyromancer's swath, grapeshot, manamorphose, rite of flame, desperate ritual, seething song, tolaria west, muddle the mixture, and peer through depths.

12post has emrakul, through the breach, GSZ, cloudpost, reap and sow, sylvan scrying, primeval titan, vesuva, and eye of ugin.

affinity has darksteel citadel, mox opal, memnite, springleaf drum, tempered steel, steel overseer, master of etherium, thoughtcast, arcbound ravager, shrapnel blast, frogmite, and galvanic blast all modern legal.

control doesn't have jtms, bitterblosson ancestral visions, force of will, or even counterspell.

I love playing control or control aggro and we def need vesions unbanned and bitterblossom would be nice

Sep 10, 2011 -- 2:41AM, Razorgore wrote:

 

There is literally nothing busted about goyf. It certainly represents the upper limit of acceptable efficiency for vanilla creatures, but goyf is exactly that - an efficient vanilla creature. Goyf is often the hammer in a lot of decks, but he's hardly the engine of any given deck, the way pestermite/exarch can be, or noble hierarch can be.

I'm dead serious when I say that griping about goyf would cease on a massive scale if it only costed $15.

I think you misunderstand me, my problem with Goyf isn't the pricepoint, Bob is balanced but terribly expensive because it has been out of print for 4 and a half years. But Goyf's scaling ability is simply something far too strong for the mana cost given to him (there was a stink about this when Goyf was $3-5.) The card didn't become expensive without good reason, and is only extremely expensive in comparison to all of the other good bears out there in testament to how over-the-line Goyf is. There will always be replacements for it, but the card itself is a problem because of the niche it gets shoe-horned into. If it were simply a , there would be no argument that could hold water against it. It was created to break a rule of design, and simple proved to be a rule that shouldn't be broken, and as such the card shouldn't be reintroduced to the game because all future chase-bears will have to be designed to match it's power if they hope to have a shot at Modern's format.

To be fair, perhaps I'm playing with the crystal ball too much on this one, but points of Power translate into damage, the same kind of damage produced by burn spells, and points of toughness create resilience to burn spells or black spells which -x/-y UEOT removal. A creature that so cheaply produces both, and checks both graveyards to do that to discourage your opponent from playing several card types and encourage you to just adds up far too quickly to be good for the future of the format. Kird Ape and Blastoderm -like effects are one thing, even the upcoming Boneyard Wurm has enough limitations to justify it, but if Tarmogoyf really has to become the game's gauntlet for creature quality, then there really aren't many other decks that will end up being worth playing unless they kill on t3.

This format needs goyf.  Without goyf why would anyone play anything but splinter twin, combo, or post . UW  Control only had a chance bc it splashed green for goyf.

Sep 11, 2011 -- 6:04AM, jblaze4lif82 wrote:

This format needs goyf.  Without goyf why would anyone play anything but splinter twin, combo, or post . UW  Control only had a chance bc it splashed green for goyf.

Because without Blazing Shoal or 12 Post, Zoo will have a stranglehold on the format. It happened in OverExtended as well. UW aggro would be fine if Sword of the Meek were unbanned, and could survive in a format where Exarch Twin was the top combo deck, SotM or none. There's no "need" for goyf other than to create ridiculous bodies, cheap and fast, which Zoos do anyways with EVERY OTHER CREATURE. The primary difference being that other creatures don't come out as 5/6 or 6/7 for 2 mana. Knight of the Reliquary , for example comes out after using fetchlands, but a land a turn, and the life expense of using them builds up fast enough to offset being a large body for 3 mana. By contrast, just for playing an Instant, a Sorcery, cracking a fetchland and having a creature of yours destroyed, Goyf turns into a 4/5. Sacrificed an artifact? 5/6. Let an Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Jace Beleren get destroyed? 6/7.  In the course of a game, it simply happens too fast, and the scope of both player's graveyard just makes it sillier. The only way to survive a goyf is to not play your cards, or to remove it (like anything else).

@Wynzerman: "Or remove it (like anything else)." This is what makes Goyf so eminently fair. It's just a vanilla beater. Hell, it doesn't even have trample. In Modern a 4/5 or even a 5/6 for 2 is... well, just good. It doesn't break anything. Even Knight is far, far more dangerous to untap with than Goyf because of all the thoroughly unfair things it can do (get manlands, fix mana, protect itself, etc).

So you might ask "then why not just print more Goyf-like creatures?" The simple answer is that Goyf can never be reprinted in another form because 8 Goyfs is something that breaks the game, while 4 Goyfs is not. Heck, even GSZ is not enough because 3-mana Goyfs are not really that impressive in a higher-power format like Modern.

I dunno goyf is awesome and he better stay in this format!

Sep 10, 2011 -- 9:03PM, catowner wrote:

control doesn't have jtms, bitterblosson ancestral visions, force of will, or even counterspell.

Not to pick on you, but I groan inwardly every time someone rattles off banned cards as an excuse for why control sucks I want to slap them and tell them to go build with an ounce of the innovation combo builders have and they should be able to craft a good enough list.

Modern has an enormous card pool. Figure something out. 

Indeed, I suppose only time will tell, but experience says Goyf is too powerful to reprint as Goyf, and if Goyf-power vanillas don't saturate the field, Goyf gets more comparatively powerful with every set allowed into the format. As it is (with Blazing Shoal , Cloudpost and Zoo being the standard), your point is absolutely valid, but there have only been 4 blocks since Tarmogoyf was printed and 3 before which are allowed in the Modern format. It may be a few years before there is enough viable competition that Goyf oppresses, but the effect it will have is innevitable much in the same way that Survival of the Fittest was just "a good card" or "just a powerful enchantment" until other enchantments since just weren't able to compete and it became enabled by Vengevine , Fauna Shaman and even Tarmogoyf .

For the moment, Goyf is fine, but I don't think we should approach the format in such a short-sighted manner. Regardless "it will be what it will be" as they say. My point isn't that "Goyf is too powerful to be a Magic card", it's that when taken off of the kitchen table in it's own deck, Goyf gets too big, too fast and oppresses too many decks to be healthy for a t3.5-4 based format, no matter "how powerful" said format is.

Sep 10, 2011 -- 4:48AM, zpikduM wrote:

Sep 10, 2011 -- 2:41AM, Razorgore wrote:

I'm dead serious when I say that griping about goyf would cease on a massive scale if it only costed $15.

This is spot on.

QFT.

I say reprint the MoFo into oblivion like they did with Birds of Paradise . Except, if they change the art and give it a normal cardface then the originals will retain much of their value and the people who whine about their "investment" will be happy.

The more people playing a format the better.
Cheaper prices = more players.
How is this a bad thing?

Sep 11, 2011 -- 12:29PM, Niche wrote:

Not to pick on you, but I groan inwardly every time someone rattles off banned cards as an excuse for why control

I was almost agreeing with you there. If only you had said "Modern" instead of "control".

Yes, Modern has a big card pool, but it's still finite, and people know what's in it. If, in the sets that make it up, Wizards has generally been very cautious about Control as being "unfun", and some of the better control cards that have slipped through recently have been banned, there's no reason why the format can't be biased against one particular deck archetype.

Not to mention that the other archetypes can netdeck, but control can't. Which is another huge advantage. But that also says that even the big boys couldn't make control work. So why are you expecting little old ordinary player so-and-so to be able to do it?

I'm not against the banned list, because making Modern work is the first priority. As long as it's got at least three viable archetypes, control doesn't have to be one of them for the format to be healthy.

Of course, in Modern's huge card pool, there are a lot of different counterspells, even if none of them are as efficient as one might like. If only there was a blue version of Dark Ritual ... what is there in blue mana accel? Or splash Green for Tarmogoyf , but don't forget Birds of Paradise while you're at it...

Sep 11, 2011 -- 12:39PM, Wynzerman wrote:

For the moment, Goyf is fine, but I don't think we should approach the format in such a short-sighted manner. Regardless "it will be what it will be" as they say. My point isn't that "Goyf is too powerful to be a Magic card", it's that when taken off of the kitchen table in it's own deck, Goyf gets too big, too fast and oppresses too many decks to be healthy for a t3.5-4 based format, no matter "how powerful" said format is.

I can tell you from experience that this is simply not true. Goyf is just fine in high-powered formats ecause of non-synergy. Goyf will literally never be "broken" because vanilla creatures CANNOT, by definition, be broken unless they are printed as such. Heck, there's a reason that there is no vanilla creature on any banlist anywhere. Goyf dies to pretty much every black removal spell that people might even consider running (DB, GFTT, Smother), and every other generic creature removal spell that exists. It is nothing more than a beater. Now, if it were a printed "5/6 for 1G," then it would certainly be too good, but it's not. Goyf scales pretty consistently as the game goes on, but it usually cannot be dropped on turn 2 and actually be more than 3/4, even in decks built to feed it (which are pointless with the number of decks that run the card).

There is also the fact that Goyf NEEDS to exist in higher-power formats. He gives every deck a way to finish quickly (usually 4-5 turns max), which is REALLY important in formats that allow for true combo decks. Furthermore, he allows midrange decks a way to compete with both power-aggro (zoo) and control while still having a real sideboard for combo. As someone who does not support "Rock-Paper-Scissors" formats, I must say that this is a good thing.

Perhaps, but I don't think it's "vanillla" either because of it's scalability. Yes, it doesn't trample, fly, blink or any other tricks, but more often than not, raw damage outweighs the importance of any of those. It isn't Leatherback Baloth , so I can't see how it's "vanilla" enough not to be a threat to the format's balance. It doesn't loop an infinite combo, it doesn't play out for free, but it does violate quite a bit of the cost-effectiveness which stabilizes Magic, therefore the "Vanilla, so it can't be broken" argument sounds shaky to me (it's by far the best scaling creature available, but I don't know if scaling is the same as vanilla). Once again though, it isn't so much the card itself as the format it is surrounded by. Golgari Grave-Troll is less of a threatening scaler, and it only scales down to regenerate (but that's because the card itself costs fairly to cast and costs for it's regeneration).

I appreciate the mature approach to discussing it though xD I hate discussions about things like this that degenerate into "no, you're a bad card"

At this point, you're simply re-phrasing your argument. The bottom line is that it IS a vanilla dude, and R&D is completely ok with there being a "goyf test" in the eternal formats, i.e. your deck needs to be able to answer or safely ignore goyf. goyf gets no bigger than a leatherback baloth for 90% of all modern magic games anyways, so it's not like he's presenting an unacceptable P/T when, as S1AL pointed out, he's just as fragile as most other creatures when it comes to removal.

This is the biggest indicator that goyf isn't broken - When presented with the option, most opponents will choose to remove something like gaddock teeg, kavu predator, or KOTR from the board before they choose to remove goyf, precisely because goyf represents an incremental threat, whereas non-vanilla dudes like the ones I listed have abilities that can cause you to just lose the game.

Sep 11, 2011 -- 3:07PM, Wynzerman wrote:

Perhaps, but I don't think it's "vanillla" either because of it's scalability. Yes, it doesn't trample, fly, blink or any other tricks, but more often than not, raw damage outweighs the importance of any of those. It isn't Leatherback Baloth , so I can't see how it's "vanilla" enough not to be a threat to the format's balance. It doesn't loop an infinite combo, it doesn't play out for free, but it does violate quite a bit of the cost-effectiveness which stabilizes Magic, therefore the "Vanilla, so it can't be broken" argument sounds shaky to me (it's by far the best scaling creature available, but I don't know if scaling is the same as vanilla). Once again though, it isn't so much the card itself as the format it is surrounded by. Golgari Grave-Troll is less of a threatening scaler, and it only scales down to regenerate (but that's because the card itself costs fairly to cast and costs for it's regeneration).

I appreciate the mature approach to discussing it though xD I hate discussions about things like this that degenerate into "no, you're a bad card"

I'm not sure but did you just insinuate that Golgari Grave-Troll is banned because of it's scaling?

Sep 11, 2011 -- 3:43PM, bughferd wrote:

I'm not sure but did you just insinuate that Golgari Grave-Troll is banned because of it's scaling?

Oh hell no xD I was just using it as an example of a banned card that scales (but the card itself is banned because of how well it dredges, I got that much).

Sep 11, 2011 -- 1:19PM, quadibloc wrote:

If only there was a blue version of Dark Ritual ... 

Go die in a fire. 

How about you give me back my black version first? 

I feel like we've missed the fact that leatherback baloth costs while tarmogoyf costs and yet both have the same P/T 90% of the time. One clearly "breaks" the cost/power ratio of magic. The card is a mistake and is broken. *That does not mean it should be banned* Broken does not (and should not) equal banned. But pretending it isn't broken just to argue it isn't banworthy is just silly.

The problem with the card is that it costs $80 of real money per card. If everyone had acess to this "vanilla" creature then no one would be calling for its banning; no one would be discussing its brokenness; and everyone would be playing it.

I paid $20 for each of my birds of paradise back when they were worth $20. All of them are now worth, at most, $4. Why? Partly because WotC reprinted it in every core set. Partly because they printed a card called Noble Hierarch so that Birds of Paradise are obselete. You know what though? Beta BoPs are still $200 and Alpha are still $250. So why do people even care if WotC reprints stuff? Original printings continue to be worth significant amounts. Especially if they change the card face and art.

Reprint the dang card. Accessibility = health.

Sep 11, 2011 -- 8:47PM, supa_tim wrote:

... One clearly "breaks" the cost/power ratio of magic. The card is a mistake and is broken...

Reprint the dang card. Accessibility = health.

IMO a broken card is one that totaly warps the format like JTMS and  stoneforge mystic did to standard, but also a card that is broken in a  more limited format is not broken in an eternal format with a much  larger card pool. In a format with manlands that can connect once for  leathal damage in a single swing on turn 2 i do not think goyf is  anywhere near broken.... at all. If you gave his hexproof/shroud you  would might have a different story but his lack of keywords makes him  easily taken care of enough that he should not be considered broken in  any eternal format.

From what i quoted it looks like what the real issue of the card is that it is good and you, along with everyone else who wants to play goyf but does not have them already, want him to either se massive reprint so he gets cheap or to see him banned so you have a good excuse to not pay for it.

Personaly i do not want it to be reprinted, or at least not reprinted often, becasue i want my playset to hold its value XD

As he stated before, Reprinting a card most likely wont lower the value of the initial versions. Eg: Alpha Lands, Birds.

Sep 11, 2011 -- 12:29PM, Niche wrote:

Sep 10, 2011 -- 9:03PM, catowner wrote:

control doesn't have jtms, bitterblosson ancestral visions, force of will, or even counterspell.

Not to pick on you, but I groan inwardly every time someone rattles off banned cards as an excuse for why control sucks I want to slap them and tell them to go build with an ounce of the innovation combo builders have and they should be able to craft a good enough list.

Modern has an enormous card pool. Figure something out. 

The thing is, there is very little incentive to play a control deck. Control decks need engines and ways of winning that are reliable and fit easily into their plan. In a format that is very easy for combo decks to win(ie, lack of free control based counters, many easy to assemble combo's, lots of digging spells etc), it's remarkably hard for a control deck to function.

We built and tested control decks, I wanted to play control, but the incentives were not there, you needed to use just as much dig as a combo deck to find the specific answers you needed, instead of winning the game, you just prolonged the time it took to lose the game. Why play a control sytle win condition, when it's easier and thus more successful to play a combo win condition?

Sure, have a pyro/twin deck with a couple more counterspells in, but turning into a straight control deck is not a worthwhile option if you aim to be competing on the top level.

Goyf does warp the format as it completely invalidates any 2CC creature ever printed in green. You HAVE to run goyf or you are running something suboptimal. The guy invalidates whole archetypes simply by existing. That doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be banned.

That isn't even my point. My point was (and I was reiterating what others have said) is that the real world cost of Tarmogoyf is what ultimately leads to this conversation about banning him.

My other point was that more people will play the format if they can get the cards to play the format. The more people playing the format the healthier the format will be (seriously, look at Vintage compared to Legacy). Make the cards accessible so that people will play the format. Especially since goyf is an aggro card and most new players will go straight to aggro since it is the most basic strategy. When they can't make a viable Modern deck because 4 cards in it cost more than the rest of the deck itself they will just go back to Standard.

Who cares if the value of your cards goes down if you aren't able to find tournaments to play your cards in because no one wants to play Modern/Legacy/Vintage? Do you want to play with your cards, or use them for your retirement fund? I own 22 dual lands, FoW, Wastes, 20 fetches and numerous other cards that sell in the secondary market. I'd rather be able to play with them than simply stroke my own ego about how my Underground Seas are worth $130. They are worthless if I can't play with them.

Sep 12, 2011 -- 7:13AM, supa_tim wrote:

Goyf does warp the format as it completely invalidates any 2CC creature ever printed in green. You HAVE to run goyf or you are running something suboptimal. The guy invalidates whole archetypes simply by existing. That doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be banned.

Gaddock Teeg
Qasali Pridemage
Kavu Predator
Elvish Visionary
Lotus Cobra
Melira
Vexing Shusher
Priest of Titania
Coiling Oracle
Fauna Shaman
Sakura-Tribe Elder


Have I made my point? 

Sep 12, 2011 -- 8:27AM, S1AL wrote:

Sep 12, 2011 -- 7:13AM, supa_tim wrote:

Goyf does warp the format as it completely invalidates any 2CC creature ever printed in green. You HAVE to run goyf or you are running something suboptimal. The guy invalidates whole archetypes simply by existing. That doesn't necessarily mean he needs to be banned.

Gaddock Teeg
Qasali Pridemage
Kavu Predator
Elvish Visionary
Lotus Cobra
Melira
Vexing Shusher
Priest of Titania
Coiling Oracle
Fauna Shaman
Sakura-Tribe Elder


Have I made my point? 

Only if your point is that you missed mine...which is my fault.

Sorry, I was referring to any beatstick that costs 2 mana or more. Out of those you listed I would classify only the Kavu as actually a beatstick. And if you are running Kavu you should already be running goyf. I was definitely over-generalizing, but in terms of beatsticks goyf is the top of the list for 2 mana. Lots of things can take the secondary beatstick spot (like Kavu), but goyf still needs to be there.*

*The only exception I can think of right now is Legacy's GW Maverick.

Please also keep in mind that I don't think he needs to be banned. Goodness no. He just needs to be accessible. Worst case scenario he isn't and people need to play Affinity. If that is how the format develops, I probably won't play it, but that probably won't bother you.

Well, honestly... something has to be the best, especially within the narrow confines of "Best 2-mana Green effectively vanilla beatstick." I mean, that's like saying "Thoughtseize invalidates every other generic 1-mana Black discard spell," or "Aether Vial is the best 1-mana artifact that can be used to dodge counter-magic." Who cares? As long as they continue to print non-Vanilla 2-mana Green creatures, I'm perfectly happy.

Sep 12, 2011 -- 10:11AM, S1AL wrote:

I mean, that's like saying "Thoughtseize invalidates every other generic 1-mana Black discard spell,"

Just saying, this one is debatable.

Sep 12, 2011 -- 1:34PM, zpikduM wrote:

Sep 12, 2011 -- 10:11AM, S1AL wrote:

I mean, that's like saying "Thoughtseize invalidates every other generic 1-mana Black discard spell,"

Just saying, this one is debatable.

I might have phrased that poorly. What you should take away from it is: "You will play 4 copies of Thoughtseize before you play a single copy of Duress, Despise, or Inquisition of Kozilek."

And no, I don't count Cabal Therapy and Raven's Crime as generic discard. They're more like the Kavu Predator and Elvish Visionary of the list.

Inquistion is to Thoughtseize what a Tarmogoyf printed as X-1/X-1 would be for G1.

Some legacy lists run Inquisition instead of a forth thoughtseize, since the lifeloss is relevant. In Modern, Inquisition and thoughtseize do very similar things since there's no FOW, and the lifeloss is even more relevant in the aggressive match ups. We found as a team we were shaving Thoughtseizes for Inquisitions in a split in the MD for Jund as an example.

Therapy and Crime are parts of engines and are very different animals.

I brought the thoughtseize thing up because some decks don't like the lifeloss [ANT, primary example, would rather run 4 Duress, then 2 Thoughtseize as their distruption package.]

And some decks want 4 Kavu Predator before 4 Goyf... general principle still applies. In the vast majority of decks, Thoughtseize is just the better card.

I have beem playing a lot of MTGO modern lately, and I gotta say that it is not at all what the OP makes it out to be.  I had not used my account in more than a year, so after I got everything working I had to buy all the cards for my chosen Modern deck.  The grand total was $75 for all ofthe MD, and that was with me being too impatient to shop around and buy from online auctions.  If I had been patient I could have cut that by 30% I'm sure.  Now, I will admit that the deck I play is cheaper than most, but I have been winning around 75% of my games.  The decks I see most are:

Goyf Zoo- Not a problem.  Yes, Goyf at 2cmc is the best in his slot, but it really does not change Zoo's game to run another card.  When I face Zoo I am much more worried about Nacatl and KotR than I am Goyf.
12 Post-  This is my worst matchup so far, and I am still around 50%.  The trick is to race them, and I can do it with decent draws.
Ascension-  This is easier to race than 12 post, but it is still a race.  The build I keep seeing uses mana spells to get a huge storm count and then casts Empty the Warens .  The thing is I still ussually have a turn or two after this happens, and that has been enough time to win.
Affinity-  I have not lost to this yet.

I have also seen UB Faeries, Elves, Rock, and a few other old friends, but not in huge numbers.  It is not a perfect format, and control needs to get some mojo going, but it is not a bust.

Sep 12, 2011 -- 10:11AM, S1AL wrote:

Well, honestly... something has to be the best, especially within the narrow confines of "Best 2-mana Green effectively vanilla beatstick." I mean, that's like saying "Thoughtseize invalidates every other generic 1-mana Black discard spell," or "Aether Vial is the best 1-mana artifact that can be used to dodge counter-magic." Who cares? As long as they continue to print non-Vanilla 2-mana Green creatures, I'm perfectly happy.

What was the best green 2 mana vanilla creature before goyf?

Werebear ? Meh, not really vanilla as he produces mana...but you really can't play him anymore anyway because of goyf.

Wild Mongrel ? I guess not really vanilla because he has that discard ability. Not that you can play him because you should probably be playing goyf.

The power gap of goyf and every other "efficient" green creature is so wide you could fit a dump truck in it. Name one green creature the mimics the functionality of goyf with remotely the same power level. It is nothing like comparing Duress and Thoughtsieze. Duress can be used as a budget alternative to Thoughtsieze with almost identical results. No creature can claim that similarity in functionality with goyf.

However, this conversation is pointless. I am perfectly happy with goyf being the best as well. However, I hate the fact that he is completely inaccesible. It has nothing to do with his power level and everything to do with his accessibility. So why are we arguing about his power level when all I want is for aggro players to be on roughly the same playing field in terms of deck design capabilities?

I hate the fact that people have to play "budget" alternatives to goyf when he is such a basic and fundamental card to green aggro strategies and no real budget alternative exists.

I hate the fact that people have to play "budget" alternatives to goyf  when he is such a basic and fundamental card to green aggro strategies  and no real budget alternative exists.

This is literally the only part of your argument that holds water. Griping about the power difference between goyf and every other "2cmc vanilla green beater" is asinine. People aren't griping about the lack of Progenitus substitutes, nor are they griping about the lack of dark confidant substitutes, despite the fact that the prices of both cards are significant in cost. I don't even understand why you continue to re-hash your argument in this thread. Are you looking for validation? Most of the other posters understand goyf's power level, and are fine with it. Goyf is one of the best card designs in magic, since his scaling (which you mistakenly view as somethingworth banning) directly correlates to the speed of whatever format he's playing in.

The lack of fetches in the upcoming meta is actually one of the biggest hints that tarmogoyf could be seeing a standard-legal reprint in the next core set.

come on guys, goyf is good but he needs other cards (every other card type) to be great. I ran him for years and now I sold them and run skinshifter strictly because of the flexability of him compared to goyf....hes bigger faster, can chump goyf even at his biggest and CAN FLY. Goyf would ahve been supra-awesome IF HE HAD TRAMPLE, chumping him with a common or token allways pissed me off because if i ahd a removal spell i would have to use it on a better target then a token.....JMO

Sep 13, 2011 -- 8:12AM, FroMoBlivion wrote:

come on guys, goyf is good but he needs other cards (every other card type) to be great. I ran him for years and now I sold them and run skinshifter strictly because of the flexability of him compared to goyf....hes bigger faster, can chump goyf even at his biggest and CAN FLY. Goyf would ahve been supra-awesome IF HE HAD TRAMPLE, chumping him with a common or token allways pissed me off because if i ahd a removal spell i would have to use it on a better target then a token.....JMO

You made a critical mistake somewhere in this post and I'm not sure if it's selling Goyf or running SKinshifter over him.

Sep 13, 2011 -- 10:11AM, bughferd wrote:

Sep 13, 2011 -- 8:12AM, FroMoBlivion wrote:

come on guys, goyf is good but he needs other cards (every other card type) to be great. I ran him for years and now I sold them and run skinshifter strictly because of the flexability of him compared to goyf....hes bigger faster, can chump goyf even at his biggest and CAN FLY. Goyf would ahve been supra-awesome IF HE HAD TRAMPLE, chumping him with a common or token allways pissed me off because if i ahd a removal spell i would have to use it on a better target then a token.....JMO

You made a critical mistake somewhere in this post and I'm not sure if it's selling Goyf or running SKinshifter over him.

selling 4 pieces of cardboard for 400 bucks, not really a mistake. Replacing them with Skinshifter.....not bad......so where did I make a mistake?......  

Sep 13, 2011 -- 11:36AM, FroMoBlivion wrote:

Sep 13, 2011 -- 10:11AM, bughferd wrote:

Sep 13, 2011 -- 8:12AM, FroMoBlivion wrote:

come on guys, goyf is good but he needs other cards (every other card type) to be great. I ran him for years and now I sold them and run skinshifter strictly because of the flexability of him compared to goyf....hes bigger faster, can chump goyf even at his biggest and CAN FLY. Goyf would ahve been supra-awesome IF HE HAD TRAMPLE, chumping him with a common or token allways pissed me off because if i ahd a removal spell i would have to use it on a better target then a token.....JMO

You made a critical mistake somewhere in this post and I'm not sure if it's selling Goyf or running SKinshifter over him.

selling 4 pieces of cardboard for 400 bucks, not really a mistake. Replacing them with Skinshifter.....not bad......so where did I make a mistake?......  

Wha?

You keep insisting that this was the right choice? Man, there is a reason why Tarmogoyf costs so much and skinshifter is still 4 bucks expensive. Tarmogoyf is most of the times permanently 4/5 and it doesn't get killed by bolts or something like that like skinshifter. That shifter guy needs mana every turn to keep him at shape, thus making him way more vulnerable to burn effects. He also activates only once per turn, you can't change him as many times as you want, even if your mana pool is big.

Tarmogoyf > Skinshifter.

I think you should get back those 'goyfs...

Sep 13, 2011 -- 11:36AM, FroMoBlivion wrote:

Sep 13, 2011 -- 10:11AM, bughferd wrote:

Sep 13, 2011 -- 8:12AM, FroMoBlivion wrote:

come on guys, goyf is good but he needs other cards (every other card type) to be great. I ran him for years and now I sold them and run skinshifter strictly because of the flexability of him compared to goyf....hes bigger faster, can chump goyf even at his biggest and CAN FLY. Goyf would ahve been supra-awesome IF HE HAD TRAMPLE, chumping him with a common or token allways pissed me off because if i ahd a removal spell i would have to use it on a better target then a token.....JMO

You made a critical mistake somewhere in this post and I'm not sure if it's selling Goyf or running SKinshifter over him.

selling 4 pieces of cardboard for 400 bucks, not really a mistake. Replacing them with Skinshifter.....not bad......so where did I make a mistake?......  

Because as long as you ever plan to play this game and as long as the color green exist Goyf will always be a good card to have and one day you are going to want them back.

Sep 13, 2011 -- 11:36AM, FroMoBlivion wrote:

selling 4 pieces of cardboard for 400 bucks, not really a mistake. Replacing them with Skinshifter.....not bad......so where did I make a mistake?......  

I don't think you did, especially if you used the money or credit to improve your constructed staples such as shocklands and dual lands.  I have faced gyof in Zoo many times, and it really does not shorten the clock much at all.  If you have Goyf, or if you are shooting for pro-tour, then it is worth your money to wring all you can out of your creatures, but for most of us your win percentage will not change much (if at all) running Skinshifter.

Sep 6, 2011 -- 6:21AM, Wynzerman wrote:

o-O Perhaps he's disappointed because Modern didn't make us all capable of walking on water.

Blesphemy.

Everyone knows only Mark Rosewater can walk on water.

Sep 12, 2011 -- 10:10PM, Razorgore wrote:

I hate the fact that people have to play "budget" alternatives to goyf  when he is such a basic and fundamental card to green aggro strategies  and no real budget alternative exists.

This is literally the only part of your argument that holds water. Griping about the power difference between goyf and every other "2cmc vanilla green beater" is asinine. People aren't griping about the lack of Progenitus substitutes, nor are they griping about the lack of dark confidant substitutes, despite the fact that the prices of both cards are significant in cost. I don't even understand why you continue to re-hash your argument in this thread. Are you looking for validation? Most of the other posters understand goyf's power level, and are fine with it. Goyf is one of the best card designs in magic, since his scaling (which you mistakenly view as somethingworth banning) directly correlates to the speed of whatever format he's playing in.

The lack of fetches in the upcoming meta is actually one of the biggest hints that tarmogoyf could be seeing a standard-legal reprint in the next core set.

I'm...I'm not sure you read my post.

I don't want goyf banned.

I want goyf reprinted.

So it seems we are in agreement, no?

Sep 14, 2011 -- 6:53PM, supa_tim wrote:

Sep 12, 2011 -- 10:10PM, Razorgore wrote:

Spoiler: Show

This is literally the only part of your argument that holds water. Griping about the power difference between goyf and every other "2cmc vanilla green beater" is asinine. People aren't griping about the lack of Progenitus substitutes, nor are they griping about the lack of dark confidant substitutes, despite the fact that the prices of both cards are significant in cost. I don't even understand why you continue to re-hash your argument in this thread. Are you looking for validation? Most of the other posters understand goyf's power level, and are fine with it. Goyf is one of the best card designs in magic, since his scaling (which you mistakenly view as somethingworth banning) directly correlates to the speed of whatever format he's playing in.

The lack of fetches in the upcoming meta is actually one of the biggest hints that tarmogoyf could be seeing a standard-legal reprint in the next core set.

 
I'm...I'm not sure you read my post.

I don't want goyf banned.

I want goyf reprinted.

So it seems we are in agreement, no?

I'm afraid that's probably my fault, and he is under the impression that we're making camps on "to ban" or "not to ban", even though my views are clearly among a minority, and more especially so if they are for the reasons why I take them. I'm hoping that I am wrong, and that future creature sets marginalize Goyf's power without making creatures stupidly good cards just for being creatures, but as it has been, I can see Goyf being a huge issue, reprinted or not. Regardless of this, I think everyone agrees that a reprint that has a solid MSRP sold outside of brick and mortars is exactly what Goyf needs (especially if the package contains multiples)

Sep 10, 2011 -- 6:57PM, zpikduM wrote:

Sep 10, 2011 -- 6:29PM, izgor wrote:

Sep 10, 2011 -- 8:29AM, S1AL wrote:

I'm assuming WotC intends to reprint Goyf... I mean, part of the reason for creating Modern is that it allows for a format where any absurdly expensive staple can be reprinted to drop prices. That, and talk about "headliners." You could reprint Goyf as a god damn rare and still sell an extra 50% boosters from that set.

Or they could reprint it mythic cus **** you (magic players).

A huge vanilla beater doesn't feel mythic. Theres no storyline attache to it, no special abilities, no set unique abilities. Just a vanilla beater would be rare at best.

I used to think mythics weren't about the money. Now I prefer the cynical route and think that they would gladly print a vanilla beater at mythic if it had such hype behind it.

And if it had good art I would probably /ok and buy it.

Time to make new decks, gnue teck as it were.

Honestly iam tired of people begging for reprints. Yawn.

I'm not going to pretend I read through 11 pages of posts, but I will say, in response to the notion that Modern is more expensive... that's ridiculous. I've built 4 decks based soley on Modern format for around $50 each. Each one of them goes toe to toe with the deep wallet Standard buffs who drop $200+ on a deck. Liliana of the Veil for instance, $50, you want copies? Oh lord, bring cash. You want copies of Sword of Feast and Famine as well? What, you on crack? $400 later... "Yeah!!! I have an awesome pwnage deck!" Play Standard against someone with a better build. "But... I spent $400 on a deck...."
I swear, with people spending so much on cards you'd hardly think we're in a recession.

On the topic of reprints... some would be nice. Reprints are always welcome in my book. To be honest, I think some reprints need reprints, but that aside, a card's a card. The pretty ones are for saving onto your desktop and looking at for eye candy. 

Why exactly did you bring this thread back to life?

It was on the first page. If it's on the first page I'm not inclined to check and see if the thread is ancient and if it is, then it's good to have some activity because a thread on the first page being inactive is little ridiculous. 

Yea, that is because Modern is not of much interest here for some reason.  At mtgsalvation there is a ton of traffic in the modern threads, but for some reason the folks that post on these forms have little interest in Modern.

That said, it is perfectly acceptable to add to any thread you want to.

OK, modern decks can be built for less than standard, but there are still two issues I don't see going away:

1. Very expensive dual lands are essential in a competitive modern deck.
2. A few cards DO dominate the format, and that means that there are really no more than a dozen dominant decks. For a format that is pulling from 1000s of cards?

If not vintage, not legacy, not modern, not standard......is there a format that does not require such expense?

Sorry if I sound ignorant, I am new to the game.

Nov 15, 2012 -- 1:40PM, rubiera wrote:

OK, modern decks can be built for less than standard, but there are still two issues I don't see going away:

1. Very expensive dual lands are essential in a competitive modern deck.
2. A few cards DO dominate the format, and that means that there are really no more than a dozen dominant decks. For a format that is pulling from 1000s of cards?

If not vintage, not legacy, not modern, not standard......is there a format that does not require such expense?

Sorry if I sound ignorant, I am new to the game.

EDH can be built for a fairly reasonable price depending on what you're going for.

@DerMeisterDoktor
Yes, EDH is the winner in the fun AND budget category.

Nov 15, 2012 -- 1:40PM, rubiera wrote:

If not vintage, not legacy, not modern, not standard......is there a format that does not require such expense?

Pauper.  /shrug

Nov 15, 2012 -- 8:04PM, DerMeisterDoktor wrote:

EDH can be built for a fairly reasonable price depending on what you're going for.

EDH is a casual format but that shouldn't be confused with cheap.  Many of the cards that are great in Standard, Modern, Legacy, and Vintage are not banned in Commander.  Those cards make huge differences in the quality of an EDH.  A good EDH will run the fetchlands, the expensive dual lands in legacy, the shocklands, etc.

You can put 600-800 bucks in an EDH easily.

The good news is once you make the investment you are pretty safe.  Nothing phases out of Commander and the banned list is relatively small and doesn't change often.  Even then, local shops will generate their own "EDH banned" lists quite often.

Never said that EDH couldn't get expensive, just that it didn't have to. The cheaper of my 2 EDH decks clocks in at over 500, but I've seen respectable decks built for a lot cheaper.