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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 4:59PM
#251
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 Snap keep?
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 5:37PM
#252
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The above post makes me wonder what the Intro packs are going to look like. I can't see them not releasing a werewolf intro pack with how popular werewolves are. They'll pretty much have to have some form of proxy (and to keep things simple it will probably be a version of the checklist proxy) for the two sided cards. I also wonder whether this means that the packs will be of different sizes, due to the need for the proxy cards?
Or maybe you'll just open your intro pack and there'll be a note saying IF YOU WANT TO YOU USE THESE CARDS, YOU HAVE TO BUY OPAQUE SLEEVES FOR THEM. ENJOY!
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 6:45PM
#253
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2009
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Another way to think about Transform:
I've been thinking about the mechanic and judging by the length of this thread so have a lot of other people. I believe a lot of the strong bad reactions are more knee-jerk and ultimately play testing will prove the logistics are not as difficult as feared. I see this mechanic as an extension of token technology and I believe when viewed in this light it becomes more palatable to those people that currently have a bad taste in their mouth. I would argue that DFCs represent a new way of understanding what a token is.
First
In the beginning there were Real Cards that went into your deck and some created tokens. These tokens were represented by whatever you wanted and could be coins, strips of paper or even other magic cards that you might place face down or mark up or just remember were representing a different card.
Second
WOTC realized that using odds & ends to represent a growing diversity of possible token creatures was not an optimal solution. Different P/T combinations, creature types and colors were all relevant information that was difficult to present with a coin on the table. Round coins also could not represent tapping well so actual token cards were added to boosters.
The addition of token creature cards occurred simultaneously with the further innovation of cards that create tokens. Tuk-tuk wouldn't be nearly as cool if there wasn't an actual token card for him to transform into and golem tokens opened up new design space for splicers. Ironically (presciently?) I printed out some double faced token cards in the past to represent two different types of creatures so the paper could serve double duty with different token makers.
Third
I believe that Innistrad has taken tokens to another (and more confusing) level by giving us essentially token spells. What I mean by this is that now with the checklists we will place tokens (the checklist) into our deck while we place the DFC (real magic card?) to the side. Or perhaps you'd prefer to conceive of this the opposite way around - you can imagine that the DFC is essentially a token creature and 75% of all Innistrad booster packs include a spell that will allow you to summon any DFC creature in the set as long as you possess that card.
I predict that the correct or most common way of playing with these cards will be to use a checklist or other token spell in your deck and have the DFC's off to the side. I feel that the blurring of tokens and Real Cards is what has upset many people. The difference between a Token and a Real Card is now less clear. When tokens were only creatures then things were more simple and more flavorful. Using the checklist as a token spell doesn't look great in your hand (as Xyx0r helpfully demonstrated above) and I see as more of a concession to drafting logicstics.
I wouldn't be surprised to see unique token spells released in the Innistrad theme packs or other products. It is interesting to question if we have a token spell that only creates a specific DFC, then what is truly the token? If I'm playing casual, what if I decide to play with a checklist and 'proxy' my DFC with a paperclip?
There may be some more kinks here to work out. I feel that when they get worked out there will be a lot of innovation and design space opened up that will ultimately be beneficial to the game. Having token spells instead of just creatures creates a lot of opportunities as well as issues. Right now I personally perceive DFC's as a new type of token creature and the checklist to be the Real Card. This makes things less exciting but also less controversial.
Krum
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 7:57PM
#254
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Date Joined:
Jul 19, 2001
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Has no one here ever read the Infraction Procedure Guide?:
"6.3. Cheating — Hidden Information Violation
Definition
A player, spectator or other tournament participant intentionally and illegally seeks information that was not previously known to them, or reveals information they are not allowed to in an attempt to gain advantage. A player has not committed an infraction if the information was revealed to them by his or her opponent accidentally, nor is he or she required to advise an opponent who may be doing so, as long as he or she does not go to excessive lengths to take advantage of this. Note that, in general, players are allowed to reveal information that is hidden to their opponents unless is it explicitly banned by the rules of the game or format.
Examples
A. A player in a booster draft intentionally reveals a card she drafted to another player during the draft.
B. A player in a booster draft intentionally peeks at the cards from which his neighbor is selecting.
C. A player intentionally looks at the faces of an opponent’s cards while shuffling an opponent’s deck.
6.4. Cheating — Manipulation of Game Materials
Definition
A player physically manipulates game materials (cards, dice, sleeves, etc.) illegally to try to gain an advantage."
I don't see how any of this is relevant to hiding a card you drafted. We do this even without playing with DSCs. There is no infraction involved in drafting a card and putting it under your basic land.
You're presuming that everyone automatically plays on a professional level at every event. Plan for the lowest common denominator when dealing with mass people. It will help you out greatly.
If someone starts yelling information about their deck, that means they're dumb. This is irrelevant to double sided cards existing or not.
That's the problem, it's not clear to the average casual player just how this interacts with Morph.
How would you know that? Why would they think that there is any interaction to begin with? Morph cards are face down, DSCs are always face up. NOT a difficult concept to tell apart.
And where, praytell, are the rules covering "placeholder" cards? I'd love for you to quote them to me from the Comprehensive Rules because... Well, they simply don't exist. (And see? I avoided using ad hominem to win my argument unlike you.)
Wow man. If you created a specific placeholder card for a game, with the same card back. Meant to replace another specific card. WHY WOULD YOU GO AND MAKE THAT CARD ILLEGAL?
Seriously man, can you think of ANY reason why we should assume that they'll make placeholders illegal for play? Could you imagine them making token cards illegal?
It's quite apparent that your grasp of the high-level Comprehensive Rules is lacking. Ironically, this is a base definition you're not familiar with here:
Card
The standard component of the game: a Magic card with a Magic card front and a Magic card back. Cards may be traditional or nontraditional. Tokens aren’t considered cards. In the text of spells or abilities, the term “card” is used only to refer to a card that’s not on the battlefield or on the stack, such as a creature card in a player’s hand. See rule 108, “Cards.” - Comprehensive Rules, p. 157/186 .pdf version
The point is: Why would we need this defnition to play DSCs? We already know those cards are legal. A player that doesn't know that definition (which is a lot of players) will have no trouble playing the game. With or without DSCs. In all the years i've played this game, NO ONE has ever required this knowledge during a game.
Player 1 is playing with sleeved DFCs. Player 2 demands to have the decks desleeved because he feels the current sleeves are marked. Player 1 lacks any "checklist cards" with which to substitute in for the DFCs. Player 1 is now officially violating 4.8. Tournament Error — Marked Cards from the Infraction Procedure Guide. What is the judge to do? I assure you, this will happen at least once.
Marked sleeves are irrelevant to the existence of DSCs. This could happen in any tourment, in any format. Also, a player CANNOT demand to have an opponent's deck de-sleeved. You can ask for a judge to check the sleeves and he can ask you to replace the sleeves he considers marked, after which, you get a time extention. They will never force a player to play with an unsleeved deck. If the cards are considered purposely marked, the point is moot since you'll get a game loss anyway.
If for a reason that escapes me, the player lacks placeholder cards and did not bring spare sleeves and cannot get another set of sleeves and the judge forces him to play unsleeved. Then the judge will give him placeholder cards. If by some cosmic disaster there isn't a single placeholder left in the room. The judge can write down anything he wants on any card witha pen and MAKE it a placeholder.That card will remain legal because it has been allowed by a judge.
Why do you hate those cards so much anyway? I bet you you'll go to the pre-release and end up loving them.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 8:14PM
#255
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Date Joined:
May 10, 2004
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Is there anything stopping WotC from creating new DSCs which have a different Day side than any DSC currently known, but the same Night side? That way, if you spot that someone at your draft table grabbed a DSC, you wouldn't necessarily know EXACTLY which card he drafted.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 8:20PM
#256
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Has no one here ever read the Infraction Procedure Guide?:
"6.3. Cheating — Hidden Information Violation
Definition
A player, spectator or other tournament participant intentionally and illegally seeks information that was not previously known to them, or reveals information they are not allowed to in an attempt to gain advantage. A player has not committed an infraction if the information was revealed to them by his or her opponent accidentally, nor is he or she required to advise an opponent who may be doing so, as long as he or she does not go to excessive lengths to take advantage of this. Note that, in general, players are allowed to reveal information that is hidden to their opponents unless is it explicitly banned by the rules of the game or format.
Examples
A. A player in a booster draft intentionally reveals a card she drafted to another player during the draft.
B. A player in a booster draft intentionally peeks at the cards from which his neighbor is selecting.
C. A player intentionally looks at the faces of an opponent’s cards while shuffling an opponent’s deck.
6.4. Cheating — Manipulation of Game Materials
Definition
A player physically manipulates game materials (cards, dice, sleeves, etc.) illegally to try to gain an advantage."
I don't see how any of this is relevant to hiding a card you drafted. We do this even without playing with DSCs. There is no infraction involved in drafting a card and putting it under your basic land.
You're presuming that everyone automatically plays on a professional level at every event. Plan for the lowest common denominator when dealing with mass people. It will help you out greatly.
If someone starts yelling information about their deck, that means they're dumb. This is irrelevant to double sided cards existing or not.
That's the problem, it's not clear to the average casual player just how this interacts with Morph.
How would you know that? Why would they think that there is any interaction to begin with? Morph cards are face down, DSCs are always face up. NOT a difficult concept to tell apart.
And where, praytell, are the rules covering "placeholder" cards? I'd love for you to quote them to me from the Comprehensive Rules because... Well, they simply don't exist. (And see? I avoided using ad hominem to win my argument unlike you.)
Wow man. If you created a specific placeholder card for a game, with the same card back. Meant to replace another specific card. WHY WOULD YOU GO AND MAKE THAT CARD ILLEGAL?
Seriously man, can you think of ANY reason why we should assume that they'll make placeholders illegal for play? Could you imagine them making token cards illegal?
It's quite apparent that your grasp of the high-level Comprehensive Rules is lacking. Ironically, this is a base definition you're not familiar with here:
Card
The standard component of the game: a Magic card with a Magic card front and a Magic card back. Cards may be traditional or nontraditional. Tokens aren’t considered cards. In the text of spells or abilities, the term “card” is used only to refer to a card that’s not on the battlefield or on the stack, such as a creature card in a player’s hand. See rule 108, “Cards.” - Comprehensive Rules, p. 157/186 .pdf version
The point is: Why would we need this defnition to play DSCs? We already know those cards are legal. A player that doesn't know that definition (which is a lot of players) will have no trouble playing the game. With or without DSCs. In all the years i've played this game, NO ONE has ever required this knowledge during a game.
Player 1 is playing with sleeved DFCs. Player 2 demands to have the decks desleeved because he feels the current sleeves are marked. Player 1 lacks any "checklist cards" with which to substitute in for the DFCs. Player 1 is now officially violating 4.8. Tournament Error — Marked Cards from the Infraction Procedure Guide. What is the judge to do? I assure you, this will happen at least once.
Marked sleeves are irrelevant to the existence of DSCs. This could happen in any tourment, in any format. Also, a player CANNOT demand to have an opponent's deck de-sleeved. You can ask for a judge to check the sleeves and he can ask you to replace the sleeves he considers marked, after which, you get a time extention. They will never force a player to play with an unsleeved deck. If the cards are considered purposely marked, the point is moot since you'll get a game loss anyway.
If for a reason that escapes me, the player lacks placeholder cards and did not bring spare sleeves and cannot get another set of sleeves and the judge forces him to play unsleeved. Then the judge will give him placeholder cards. If by some cosmic disaster there isn't a single placeholder left in the room. The judge can write down anything he wants on any card witha pen and MAKE it a placeholder.That card will remain legal because it has been allowed by a judge.
Why do you hate those cards so much anyway? I bet you you'll go to the pre-release and end up loving them.
I don't follow you at all. The issue is if regular draft should resemble Rochester or if it is OK to collude when Rochester is good for you and not when the players nearby suck at Magic and would intentionally screw you instead of fall in line. OR that it is now OK to be all sneaky with your cards forever, which makes cheating easier. OH-I am 'hiding' what I drafted in M13, except all I am doing is switching out a crap pick with another from a loaded pack. Need I cite Brian Demar's GenCon report to explain how the Magic comminity needs to protect against criminals?
The entire point is that the rules of draft have now changed FOREVER over a handful of cards, that quite frankly, aren't all that good. Werewolves are aggro. They are good until an opponent can cast 2 spells a turn, and then, like hellbent and metalcraft, just aren't worth it to make work. The kicker is you don't even control when they freaking work. If all it was were bigger flip cards, fine. They had to change too many rules that affect cheating to allow a handful of cards to exist. I wanted to be on board because they look nice, but they are trash. This is the selling point of this set? It must have been a kick in the balls sort of day in Renton today.
Playing Magic with stickers has a shelf live, and it is long overdue up there. They just don't get what playing Magic actually is anymore.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 9:06PM
#257
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2011
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This new "fight" mechanic is retarded and needs to be banned/removed immediately.
remove it from the game, you know, like how it was never intended for the game to begin with.
In fact, don't even bother printing the rest of the set if it has this mechanic... just take those cards OUT of the set and replace them with something else that doesn't entirely bastardize the game.
Store/Shop owners should not be allowed to play in their sanctioned tournaments.
They are taking (stealing) prize support from their clients.
They have unfair access to their entire stock of cards to choose from to build any deck they choose while 90% of their paying customers don't have this ability. It's an advantage that should not be allowed.
Players should not be allowed to simply draw once they've made the top 8. It should always be considered Collusion and they should receive a round loss and a warning for doing it.
Don't be a wuss. Man up or go home.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 9:20PM
#258
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+1 for dislike on the implementation of Transform. I love love love the flavor. I hate that it's tied to either playing no spells or multiple spells.
This seems so awkward for players to keep track of and more of a worry about your opponent's actions (than normal). I would have liked the standard flip conditions that don't necessarily go into a flip-reverse mode. Or even some kind of global day/night world enchantment.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 9:30PM
#259
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2005
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The above post makes me wonder what the Intro packs are going to look like. I can't see them not releasing a werewolf intro pack with how popular werewolves are. They'll pretty much have to have some form of proxy (and to keep things simple it will probably be a version of the checklist proxy) for the two sided cards. I also wonder whether this means that the packs will be of different sizes, due to the need for the proxy cards?
Or maybe you'll just open your intro pack and there'll be a note saying IF YOU WANT TO YOU USE THESE CARDS, YOU HAVE TO BUY OPAQUE SLEEVES FOR THEM. ENJOY!
Or... the Event Pack with the Werewolves will come with sleeves in the box...
It's possible...
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 11:25PM
#260
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Date Joined:
Dec 17, 2006
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opaque:
not transparent or translucent; impenetrable to light; not allowing light to pass through.
clear:
transparent; allows light to pass through
if a sleave isn't one or the other, it isn't a sleave at all
Ultra-Pro's standard line of sleeves (the non-black ones at least; not sure about the black ones) are sort of translucent. You can sort of see the card back through the sleeve (the white dot is especially visible).
It's an opaque sleeve that isn't really opaque. Better buy some Dragonshields for a dollar a sleeve.
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