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2 years ago ::
Aug 16, 2011 - 11:01PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Nov 11, 2009
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OK, maybe I'm just dumb. Can someone explain to me why to run Ghost Quarter  s over fetchlands? Is it because they also double as pseudo- Wasteland  s? If so, why is this necessary? Is there some sort of nonbasic land in the format that can lock out our combo, that we need Wasteland against?
I mean, yeah, GC puts two lands in the yard and a fetch only puts one land in the yard. But when you Sunrise, one of those lands you're getting back is a GC which only goes to fetch more lands, right? Or is it because at the end of the combo you have the flexibility to use the GC for mana?
This is puzzling.
Is it just because this is BoaB and GC's are $4? :P Because I've plenty of fetches but no real desire to buy GC's unless they're actually *needed*.
If it's just the budget issue: how many fetches would you suggest? the full boat of all 8 (tarns & rainforests)? Or some amount between 4-7?
Thanks!
P.S. I also note you chose to run 4x Preordain and only 2x Ponder. Is this because you feel Preordain is better due to its digging power? (And aren't you disregarding the fact that a Ponder shuffle can put a Baubled card higher up in the library?) And if you feel Preordain is better, and Ponder is just "Preordains #5-6", then would you say it's always better to Preordain over Ponder if you're holding both?
You Ghost Quarter your own lands, so every time you go through the loop you gain a little more mana to allow for the combo off.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 16, 2011 - 11:02PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2007
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Ghost quarter has several advantages over fetchlands...
No loss of life
Is still useful after there are no islands in your deck (although you won't be able to search for anything, you can still put islands into your graveyard so you can reanimate them untapped)
Can legitimately be used on the opponent (Next Level Blue used to run Tarmogoyf with no Forests, so if you ghost quartered their duals they couldn't kill you)
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2 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2011 - 12:34AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2003
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Best. BoaB. Ever.
I don't think I've ever been as excited about a competitive deck before in my life. I just wish I had the cards to build it.
Zindaras' meta is like a fossil, ancient and its secrets yet to be uncovered. Only men of yore, long dead, knew of it.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2011 - 1:49AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Mar 14, 2010
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When you GC your land, GC and the land come back untapped, so you get back 2 untapped lands. With fetches, you'd only get 1 untapped land after Second Sunrise. I don't know if the fetches are better because they might thin you out faster. When you start comboing, you just need the Blooms.
They both come back untapped, yes, but if you want to GC again, you're still only getting 1 mana and 1 land search, same as a fetch. So basically GC is better if a.) you need a wasteland or b.) on some later turn you need extra mana and are done thinning, you can tap the GC for 1 generic. As for thinning I think they're the same; whichever one you activate (GC or a fetch) only strips 1 land out of your library.
Gonna test without and see what sort of results I get. Basically all I have to do is be careful to count & remember how many basics are left in my library before each time I fetch. At that point, sadly, recurring the fetches will cease to give value... slightly tempted to run a singleton Urborg just to fix that. :P
Also, what do y'all think of Time Reversal  in this? Whenever I run the deck it seems like my hand gets clogged with worthless lands and lotus blooms while I'm going off, when I'd rather be drawing more reshapes and spellbombs and second sunrises. It would also obviate the need to Bauble -> Ponder. Just resolve a Sunrise and then Reversal. The 5 mana would really only be doable off double Bloom though. :\
Finally, what do you folks think about Grinding Station  as an alternate win-con? You can easily return 15+ artifacts per Sunrise once you really get going. At that rate, you can cause millout in two sunrises with Grinding Station. It's also less mana intensive than Pyrite (you can still win with Pyrite even if all your Blooms get extirpated - but it requires careful management of chromatic eggs). Whereas Grinding Station fits the deck perfectly and costs no extra mana to operate once it's online. Also, if the Station was our engine it might be feasible to replace Flask with Ichor Wellspring  , since we would have a sac outlet. Reshape could find the Station when the time came.
Opinions?
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2 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2011 - 2:13AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Mar 18, 2007
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Wow, what a fantastic deck! I want to play it, I want to play against it, and I need to build it. Would've liked to see a play-by-play against some super aggro deck in addition to the fishbowl, though. Great work.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2011 - 4:32AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2007
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This is probably the best budget article I have read in a long time. It is a budget deck that is interesting to play and the detail JVL goes into is mindblowing. I really want to build this deck just to try and understand the intricies of it.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2011 - 5:37AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2011
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This is a great deck and all but I play standard... oh well I'll come back next week lol :P
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2 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2011 - 5:40AM
#18
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When you GC your land, GC and the land come back untapped, so you get back 2 untapped lands. With fetches, you'd only get 1 untapped land after Second Sunrise. I don't know if the fetches are better because they might thin you out faster. When you start comboing, you just need the Blooms.
They both come back untapped, yes, but if you want to GC again, you're still only getting 1 mana and 1 land search, same as a fetch. So basically GC is better if a.) you need a wasteland or b.) on some later turn you need extra mana and are done thinning, you can tap the GC for 1 generic. As for thinning I think they're the same; whichever one you activate (GC or a fetch) only strips 1 land out of your library.
Gonna test without and see what sort of results I get. Basically all I have to do is be careful to count & remember how many basics are left in my library before each time I fetch. At that point, sadly, recurring the fetches will cease to give value... slightly tempted to run a singleton Urborg just to fix that. :P
Also, what do y'all think of Time Reversal in this? Whenever I run the deck it seems like my hand gets clogged with worthless lands and lotus blooms while I'm going off, when I'd rather be drawing more reshapes and spellbombs and second sunrises. It would also obviate the need to Bauble -> Ponder. Just resolve a Sunrise and then Reversal. The 5 mana would really only be doable off double Bloom though. :\
Finally, what do you folks think about Grinding Station as an alternate win-con? You can easily return 15+ artifacts per Sunrise once you really get going. At that rate, you can cause millout in two sunrises with Grinding Station. It's also less mana intensive than Pyrite (you can still win with Pyrite even if all your Blooms get extirpated - but it requires careful management of chromatic eggs). Whereas Grinding Station fits the deck perfectly and costs no extra mana to operate once it's online. Also, if the Station was our engine it might be feasible to replace Flask with Ichor Wellspring , since we would have a sac outlet. Reshape could find the Station when the time came.
Opinions?
What you seem to be missing with Ghost Quarter is that when you sac it to destroy one of your Islands and get another one, casting Second Sunrise  will return both the Island and the Ghost Quarter, netting you +1 land after you use the GQ again.
A Scalding Tarn  , however, will only ever come back on its own, never with another Island.
For example: Lets say you have 1 GQ and 1 Island. You tap the Island for U, then destroy it with GQ, getting another Island you can then tap for another U. Reshape  shenanigans usually occur here. When you get around to casting your Second Sunrise , both the Island and GQ will return to the battlefield, meaning you are now at 2 Islands and 1 GQ (1 Island should be tapped). Each time you go through the loop, you get +1 land all untapped, and the GQ can destroy to tapped one to get another untapped Island. This number grows since they all return untapped each time.
Substituting in a Fetch for GQ results in you getting a new Island into play each turn, but all previous Islands are already tapped and cannot be reused. None reach the graveyard to be returned by Second Sunrise.
I hope that made sense, if not, I can try again...
MTG Rules Advisor Autocarding helps a lot -> [ c]Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas[/c] = Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas  "But keep in mind when the internet dies with the electrical system in 2012, you can still play paper magic, while digital cards will have gone the way of the dodo. In the post apocalyptic world, magic cards will be our currency!" - Samot, explaining to someone the ramifications of switching to MTGO! I am Blue/Black
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2 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2011 - 5:43AM
#19
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ProfN: Fetches wouldn't work here because they don't put another land into your 'yard. When comboing, you use GC to not only thin the deck, but put basics into your graveyard so they come back untapped when you start casting Sunrise. The deck is mana-sensitive, and you're not always going to start with two Blooms on the table. The extra blue mana you get from returning Islands untapped can help push you to where you need to go. Yes, with fetches, you can still sac them and search for more basics, but you that's actually less mana than a GC generates. Here, let me give you an example:
Situation: a basic and the relevant land on the field, about to cast your first Sunrise.
Tap basic.
Sac a fetch, grab a basic.
Tap basic.
Play Sunrise. Returns the fetch.
Sac the fetch again, get another basic.
Tap basic.
Done. Net mana from the two lands you started with: three. Lands in the graveyard for next loop: one.
Tap basic.
Sac GC, targeting the basic. Search up another basic (untapped).
Tap basic.
Play Sunrise. Returns the GC and the basic.
Tap basic.
Sac GC, targeting the basic. Search up another basic (untapped).
Tap basic.
Done. Net mana from the two lands you started with: four. Lands in the graveyard for next loop: two.
As mentioned in the article, this is a deck of percentages. One mana can make a bunch of difference. The ability to use it as a wasteland is non-trivial, and the lifeloss in the (expected) aggro format of Modern can make an impact when you might not get started before turn four and can fizzle. Having two guaranteed lands in the graveyard, both of which can produce mana, is important, as the deck may need to loop several times non-infinitely to get the pieces it needs to go infinite, and you may run out of lands before that happens. If it's a fetch in your graveyard, it will actually stop producing mana at some point, and all the lifeloss could kill you.
On another note, I probably wouldn't use Grinding Station simply because it by itself can't be used as an Egg if you need it. One of the things about the Spellbombs is that they are not only win conditions but also puzzle pieces; replacing them with something that doesn't serve that purpose weakens the deck when it relies on those little interactions to push through. Also, the deck already has an alternate win condition with the white spellbomb; it can make infinite life and sit on a looping deck until your opponent runs out of cards.
Bluecash: play-by-plays with this deck are largely useless, as the entire deck is dedicated to the combo, and it generally doesn't interact at all until it has already started going off. It has no creatures, it has no counterspells, it has no kill spells. It sits there and takes anything and everything the opponent's deck throws at it until it explodes, then it prays you don't know what you need to counter to stop this particular explosion.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2011 - 5:59AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Aug 14, 2003
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In Paperworld: Death by shuffling.
Online: Death by clicking.
And remember: no man is an Island!
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