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Switch to Forum Live View 08/10/2011 StF: "Magic's Exclusive Creatures"
2 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2011 - 5:48PM #1
Garmichael
Date Joined: Jun 24, 2008
Posts: 1,572
This thread is for discussion of this week's Savor the Flavor, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2011 - 9:45PM #2
jedi123
Date Joined: Sep 6, 2008
Posts: 6,321
Considering the original Masticore was printed in Urza Block I don't see how it doesn't count. It's been on 2 planes, has a unique identity (both physically and mechanically). If slivers can make it for on the list for being transported to Rath from where ever and then dumped on Dominaria (while we have seen them on two planes, they were not natural to either), why can't Masticores make it for being on two planes?

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2011 - 10:06PM #3
writer1007
Date Joined: May 4, 2009
Posts: 407
I am baffled...you say the Viashino, aka lizard-men, are shoe ins then immediately discount the other anthropomorphs. Also...Wurms? Seriously? Wurms have been around in Fantasy for....ever. Right off the top of my head is the Fred Saberhagen "Swords" books (late 80s)....

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2011 - 10:25PM #4
Dragon_Bloodthirsty
  • Warm, wet and squishy inside
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2003
Posts: 364

Why does it need to be seen on at least 2 planes?  I think that's arbitrary garbage.


And I'm going to nitpick every decision you made, because that's really the point of this article.


Slivers are pretty awesome and distinct, and I think they pull a lot of their uniformity from the "everybody gains..." mechanic.  The original slivers were pretty distinct from one another (arguably too distinct), and I think the Legions slivers could use some more variety, but overall I think they work.  I always felt like Metalic Sliver and Horned Sliver looked most like the archetypal sliver (with a big, long, rigid crest, rather than the snakey stuff seen on Plated Sliver and Pulmonic Sliver ), but I think anything with one claw, two tails, a funny head and no legs would look like a sliver to me.


For the Baloths, you condemned them for their lack of uniformity, and then claimed that wurms were a "unique Magic property".  WTF?  I've not seen a baloth in any other property, and a Google search for "baloth" turns up nothing but Magic websites.  Wurms are a staple of fantasy in general, popping up in everything from DnD to Dune to Tremors and more.  Furthermore, wurms in Magic lack uniformity just as badly as the Baloth does -- Craw Wurm , Arrogant Wurm , Autochthon Wurm , Bellowing Tanglewurm , Charnelhoard Wurm , Duskdale Wurm , et al.  That's only a tiny selection of this creature type which exists in many properties, even outside of dedicated fantasy properties.  Magic cannot possibly claim "wurms" as its own.  At the same time, the variety represented in the wurms demonstrates how a large number of visually distinct representations can all be the same thing.  Baloths are big, loud, and menacing, whatever they are, and there's a much stronger case for them being "a unique Magic property".  In other words, if I were establishing my own new IP, Wurms would be on the table and there's not a darned thing you can do about it, but Baloth is all yours and the courts will back you up.


Hellions are pretty cool, and I like them.  They're definitely unique, although I think they're ultimately derived from the wurm heritage (but they're distinct enough with their barbules and affinity for fire to get by).  The term "Hellion" is not distinct to Magic, but Hellions as fire wurms with tentacles is.


The Vedalkin is a color-swapped person -- they're blue humans.  Ditto the Kor, who are white humans, although the barbule beards are pretty cool.  The Kithkin are just squat halflings or hobbits, existing archetypally in fantasy.  If we're tossing out all the anthropomorphic animal/people (which I can respect), then I think the Viashino have to go because they're nothing more than lizard men.  Giving the groups unique names lets you own the name, but it doesn't change that they aren't fundamentally derivative creatively.  The Kithkin's psychic connection isn't completely unique either, it being a staple of science fiction and fantasy (and already popping up in the Slivers, for heaven sake).


I do agree that Phedagrifs are pretty cool, and "distinct enough".  I'm kinda surprised I didn't see one in Time Spiral block.  "Normal animal with wings" might not really qualify as creative, but I think this one manages to do its thing well enough.  Everything is made from other little bits in the end.

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2011 - 12:53AM #5
zammm
Date Joined: Jul 3, 2003
Posts: 27,230
I like Archons; the relation to the traditional 'blind justice' figure is appealing, and they manage to simultaneously mirror both Specters (being armed humanoids riding flying mounts) and Angels (being an opposite-gender derivation of a real-word referent). That's either clever character design or tremendously fortunate coincidence; either way, it's very cool.

I do, however, dislike the way Archon of Justice and Vengeful Archon are 'blinded' by having their faces cast in shadow. It's much too close to the way Specters are depicted for my tastes; when I first saw Archon of Justice 's art back in Eventide, my first thought was that it was some sort of hybrid Specter. It also seems to go against the idea of being an incarnation of justice in the first place: since when is the face of justice hidden or shrouded in darkness?
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2011 - 1:50AM #6
carrionpigeons
Date Joined: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 84
My first thought on reading this article was, "Masticore's only on Mirrodin? That ain't right."  Not only does the original Masticore exist on Dominaria, but it predates the Mirrodin plane completely, both in terms of design and chronology.  Check out Deep Analysis if you want to argue that the original Masticore may not have actually been on Dominaria (since Urza Block had some admittedly murky plane-hopping going on).

Although I'll definitely agree that Archons being blind needs better representation, art-wise.  Obscuring their faces really isn't enough to get that concept across, and it does give them a confused overlap with Spectres.  (Though I certainly wouldn't object to a B/W Spectre/Archon!  That'd be awesome, since, of course, B/W is the best color combo ever.)
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2011 - 1:56AM #7
TranscientMaster
Date Joined: May 15, 2010
Posts: 5,132
I don't have a lot of complaints here - after all, the list is fairly subjective - but I can't accept Wurms being "In". Rhox, Loxodon, and probably even Leonin are more "unique" to Magic than Wurms are. Wurms are everywhere. Well, maybe not everywhere, but enough places you really can't claim them as Magic-exclusive.

Viashino are probably in the same boat. Lizardmen are very common, far more than any of the other races mentioned. The Rhox and Loxodon seem to me far more exclusive than them.

Kor and Vedalken may be very humanoid (as are Elves), but they're unique enough that I'd say they qualify. The Thoughtweft sets the Kithkin apart from hobbits and other fantasy halflings, but also limits their qualifications on the plane-spanning requirement.

Overall, given the requirements listed, I'd make the following changes for my own (still highly subjective) list:

In:
  • Myr (Dubious, having only been seen on one plane, but still worthy I think)
  • Masticore
  • Rhox
  • Loxodon

Out:
  • Viashino
  • Wurm
  • Kithkin

The other borderline cases could go either way, but those are the ones I feel strongly about. The anthropomorphs could really go any way, but the Wurms must go!
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2011 - 2:50AM #8
Necrokeryx
Date Joined: Dec 23, 2010
Posts: 154
Magic needs more Baloth creatures. They're awesome.

I remember when me and my friends started playing, I had given my friend Brandon an Enormous Baloth . Heh, I remember him saying, "HOLY ****, 7 POWER AND TOUGHNESS?!". I loved the days of being naive and playing bad cards ^^ That's probably why I like pauper so much...

And I kind of disagree that they lack a consistent visual identity: they're all reptillian.
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2011 - 4:16AM #9
GizenshaFox
Date Joined: Jul 4, 2011
Posts: 308

Aug 9, 2011 -- 10:25PM, Dragon_Bloodthirsty wrote:

Wurms are a staple of fantasy in general, popping up in everything from DnD to Dune to Tremors and more.


Pretty sure they're worms rather than wurms in Tremors, Dune, etc. Not a clue about D&D.


The distinction? Giant worms are giant worms, while wurms are dragons... Specifically the Old High German word for Dragon (the Old English equivilent was Wyrm. Now, I agree that it's probably not enough for a court to hold up as 'distinct IP' but reconceptualising dragons into what Magic calls Wurms is certainly... Different... Especially considering there's nothing about wurms to indicate R&D actually know they're doing that. "Blue dragons are small dudes who fly but have no breath weapons, red dragons are fire breathing traditional European dragons and... Green dragons are... Giant, carnivorous earthworms. Huh." was pretty much my first reaction to seeing Blue drakes, Red dragons and Green wurms, anyway... I'm still trying to figure out how you get from European Dragon to 'giant carnivorous earthworm' - At least Craw Wurm is a reptile.


The Vedalkin is a color-swapped person -- they're blue humans.  Ditto the Kor, who are white humans, although the barbule beards are pretty cool.  The Kithkin are just squat halflings or hobbits, existing archetypally in fantasy.




Kithkin are Magic brand Halflings in the same way that Hobbits are Tolkein brand Halflings... Are they distinct enough to be unique... It's borderline, certainly the only interpritation of Halflings I've ever seen with a passive empathic link.

If we're tossing out all the anthropomorphic animal/people (which I can respect), then I think the Viashino have to go because they're nothing more than lizard men.




Agreed entirely with that. (Heck, lizard men are probably more common than elephant men or rhino men)

Giving the groups unique names lets you own the name, but it doesn't change that they aren't fundamentally derivative creatively.  The Kithkin's psychic connection isn't completely unique either, it being a staple of science fiction and fantasy (and already popping up in the Slivers, for heaven sake).




On halflings, however, it's certainly something I've never seen before.

I do agree that Phedagrifs are pretty cool, and "distinct enough".  I'm kinda surprised I didn't see one in Time Spiral block.  "Normal animal with wings" might not really qualify as creative, but I think this one manages to do its thing well enough.  Everything is made from other little bits in the end.




Flying hippos are... slightly ridiculous, though. Charming but ridiculous.

(Which means there should be more of them, clearly. Owlbears may be utterly mad conceptually but their existence doesn't seem to have done D&D any harm. Shame their being multicoloured makes them utterly impossible to include in a core set, really.)
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 10, 2011 - 4:24AM #10
GreenBuster
Date Joined: Oct 7, 2008
Posts: 871
Slivers started on Rath, so they definately meet the requirements.
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