I really dislike the Titans being reprinted. The thing is they are just better then anything else likely for 5+ mana. The result is you have all of scars block where the exciting rares that all cost 6-7 mana will see very limited play as you have to justify why play them over the titans. Simply put cards that are head and shoulders above the rest greatly reduces the "playable" card pool and makes the game very stale very quickly. Also while I have no issue with staple good cards found in the core set if your using it to introduce new players to the game you shouldn't actively show them the best creatures available in the core sets. I know if I was knew and found out the Titans were already the best creatures I would question why bother with the advanced sets at all.
As for the Dual Lands well they were played out with Magic 2011 just look at how little they are worth. Basically when you make dual lands that only work with the basic lands and then give us a ton of good non-basic lands people tend not to bother and the fact that they are worth 1-2 dollars isn't a good thing as it means they are seeing basically zero play. Reprinting the dual man lands or even a group of shock lands or heck even the shards tri-lands would have been a LOT more interesting. This is basically the exact oposite of the titans where you are going hey look duals to a new player and then by the end of a block or two you have 3 duals that are just strictly better then the ones offered in the core set. I mean look at the secondary pricing on these by now of $1-2 each and you should be able to tell if people want them they already have them.
Overall though the issue with Magic 2012 is there is nothing new and appealing in it. Why bother printing a core set every year with new cards if litterally nothing new in it is valueable or exciting. Even with it being new with fairly inflated pricing there are only a hand full of new rares worth anything and most of those won't stay over $1 in the long run. The non-core set reprints of Grim Lavamancer and Solemn Simulacrum are likely the most exciting cards in the set.
The Mythics for me are even worse then the rares. I can't see any of these as interesting. Of the 5 planeswalkers only Gideon is even good. Then out of the other 5 we have a unplayable dragon, A mediocre Vampire Lord, Time reversal, a enchant creature and a unplayble hydra. Really what is selling this set to anyone?
As has been said over the past few pages, the Titans aren't pushing other six-drops out of Standard -- they really mark the first time six-drops have been playable as more than a two-of finisher card.
Except that other than Primeval in one deck (two if Eldrazi Green counts), that's exactly the role they fill. They're just stupidly good at it.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Your problem is that the Titans are the six-drop finisher of choice? That just rings kind of hollow. If it weren't the Titans, it would be Steel Hellkite, or Wurmcoil Engine, or some other fatty. There's always going to be a best card for a given purpose at a given cost. If anything, the fact that all of the Titans see play in separate colors, rather than every deck splashing for one of them, should be praised.
This is not true. If Wizards does their job, there shouldn't BE any "always best" cards. Some cards should be better in some situations, and different cards in others. Besides, I believe his point was that they're too powerful, and that they require other cards to be pushed in power, like Wurmcoil Engine in order to see play. This is how power creep begins, and the fact that Wizards didn't rein the Titans in after a year means the power will creep further until some damage control happens. Just like how Faeries led to Cascade led to JTMS.
And saying that "since all five Titans see play, it's fine" is also wrong. Having five overpowered cards instead of one overpowered card does not make the game any healthier, since there are still overpowered cards out there.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Your problem is that the Titans are the six-drop finisher of choice? That just rings kind of hollow. If it weren't the Titans, it would be Steel Hellkite, or Wurmcoil Engine, or some other fatty. There's always going to be a best card for a given purpose at a given cost. If anything, the fact that all of the Titans see play in separate colors, rather than every deck splashing for one of them, should be praised.
This is not true. If Wizards does their job, there shouldn't BE any "always best" cards. Some cards should be better in some situations, and different cards in others. Besides, I believe his point was that they're too powerful, and that they require other cards to be pushed in power, like Wurmcoil Engine in order to see play. This is how power creep begins, and the fact that Wizards didn't rein the Titans in after a year means the power will creep further until some damage control happens. Just like how Faeries led to Cascade led to JTMS.
And saying that "since all five Titans see play, it's fine" is also wrong. Having five overpowered cards instead of one overpowered card does not make the game any healthier, since there are still overpowered cards out there.
I agree with both of you a bit. Certainly the argument of "there will always be a best card, so why does it matter if it's this one?" does not hold up - there can instead be a tier of many cards of similar power level. Titans, actually, approach that, and it is certainly better for people to play all different titans than for everyone to play the same one. However, it would be better still for a more varied set of fatties/finishers to see play, something which is difficult so long as each color has a titan. Elesh Norn and Sheoldred, for example, are on the cusp of playability - without titans, they might be used a lot more. Various dragons and sphinxes are always waiting in the wings. Green does have Avenger of Zendikar , which sees play despite titans, but I can't think of much else that is competitive for green, which is probably a bad sign for the "fattie" color.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Your problem is that the Titans are the six-drop finisher of choice? That just rings kind of hollow. If it weren't the Titans, it would be Steel Hellkite, or Wurmcoil Engine, or some other fatty. There's always going to be a best card for a given purpose at a given cost. If anything, the fact that all of the Titans see play in separate colors, rather than every deck splashing for one of them, should be praised.
My problem is that Titans are dumb, but that's not the point. My point is that by and large the Titans do only see play as two-of finishers. You could make a 20/20 with flying, hexproof, and infect for six mana and it would still fill that role simply because it costs six.
This is not true. If Wizards does their job, there shouldn't BE any "always best" cards. Some cards should be better in some situations, and different cards in others.
No, that's just what we want Wizards's job to be. The brutal reality is that Wizards's job is to sell as many packs as possible, and see agressivly costed chase rares/mythics as the vehicle to do so. However, a repeat cycle of chase mythics that are falling out of favor, a repeat dual land cycle, and unsual numbers of pointlessly-nerfed commons and uncommons probably isn't going to work out as planned.
This is not true. If Wizards does their job, there shouldn't BE any "always best" cards. Some cards should be better in some situations, and different cards in others.
No, that's just what we want Wizards's job to be. The brutal reality is that Wizards's job is to sell as many packs as possible, and see agressivly costed chase rares/mythics as the vehicle to do so. However, a repeat cycle of chase mythics that are falling out of favor, a repeat dual land cycle, and unsual numbers of pointlessly-nerfed commons and uncommons probably isn't going to work out as planned.
I'm amused that you first say that Wizards' job is to make agressively costed chase rares to make money, and then turn around and say that the Titans, which they chose to reprint, are falling out of favor (which means falling in value) and that they're making cards players like less than others, like Lightning Bolt's replacement . Obviously they have some goals other than printing chase rares/mythics that they take into account when building a set. After all, they know that if the game isn't fun, which requires balance, then they'll lose money no matter how chase their cards are.
Yes, they pushed the Titans too much, and it was almost certainly in part motivated by economic factors (they are a business after all). However, their reason for reprinting them in M12 can't be to milk as much value as possible; didn't they just give away a ton of Titans as promo cards? More likely, they reprinted the Titans in M12 to increase supply since they realized the Titans were rather restrictively expensive. A noble goal, and I applaud them for it. I would, personally, rather see them rein in the cards now and bring power level back down to a reasonable amount, but they have more market research than I, as one customer with an opinion, do, so they're probably right in choosing to increase supply before cutting them from the environment. I hope.
I'm amused that you first say that Wizards' job is to make agressively costed chase rares to make money, and then turn around and say that the Titans, which they chose to reprint, are falling out of favor (which means falling in value) and that they're making cards players like less than others, like Lightning Bolt's replacement .
Oh, it amuses me, too. M12 is going to be a letdown, overall. The chase cards aren't very chased, and the nerfs and garbage aren't helping.
Of course I'm happy to see the Titans return. 2 sets is a good stretch for such impressive creatures, plus the outcry over "they just killed off the Titans" that you would have gotten would be bigger than "Oh geez they printed them again." It makes it easier for everyone to collect them that missed, plus it's always fun to Frost Titan in limited.
On the lands, don't be silly stability IS what the core sets about. Again, same thing. You replace the great big monsters and lands n ppl will just complain about having ot buy brand new lands when we already had perfectly OK playsets of X Y Z.
The only downside is that creatures at 6 REALLY hav to dent the fender so to say if they wanna be played over the 6 (including Wurmcoil) titans. Then again, that's a fun challenge.
I'll start by stating how pleased I am with this discussion. The healthy back-and-forth makes me proud to lock minds of this calibur both with cardboard and keystrokes.
Regarding the dual-lands, especially the clamouring for the rarity drop and enemy duels: this is something the players want, it's not something Wizards wants. If M12 had yet-another-new-cycle of dual lands bumping out M10's, then competitive players would have to unsleeve 4-12 cards, buy (at least 4-12) packs of M12, and repeat for every deck they own, and repeat for every time the set cycles. I shouldn't have to explain why financially this is a good move for them. All decks need land, and dual-lands are a powerful resource that the competitive player needs to embrace. Using the set-format to renew Need is simply logical.
Enemy-coloured dual-lands are not something that will likely happen in a core set. As some have stated, bumping the ally-coloured lands down to uncommon and reprinting shock-dual lands at Rare, while appealing from a player's point of view doesn't teach the lessons they think it would. To the experienced player, rarity imparts quantity (I have more Commans than Uncommons, etc.), to the newer player, quality. So when someone claims that "because the Ally-lands are uncommon, and enemy lands are Rare, new players should conclude that ally is easier to build around," the beginner would more likely conclude that "enemy colours are Rare, so enemy is better." The interractions between the colours don't really allow for an elegant solution to this dilemma, at least not in a Core Set.
I'm happy the M10 lands made it back in just so I can continue using the lands I have and don't have to play the re-sleeve game for another year.
I'm also getting the unpleasant impression that the Mythic rarity is painting Wizards into a corner they didn't need to be in. What gives me hope is that they did so needlessly, and recognizing the problem and not repeating it will simply solve the problem as sets rotate out. My very first mythic was Omnath, Locus of Mana . It is, and still is one of my favourite Green cards of all time. I felt like I pulled Green, the Card . No one ever told me Omnath was broken. And he... it isn't. At the same time, it's too unique for Rare, and thus: Mythic.
On the topic of Green, giving every colour access to Green's body-efficiency hurts Green significantly. Giving Black access to token-generation only Green(, White, and sometimes Red) should be able to produce so efficiently hurts (White and Red somewhat, and) green significantly. Grave Titan 's deathtouch and token buddies prevents the typical Green combat-based-removal stategy dead, Frost Titan 's lockdown stops Green's combat-based-removal cold, Sun Titan 's Vigilance-fueled resource management trumps Green, and Inferno Titan 's spot removal seems specifically catered to char elves. Green's only "answer" to a Titan just cuts it in half, Wurmcoil Engine and Arachnus Spinner seem like better answer to Titans in a mono-green deck than Green's actual Titan . Trample is meaningless if all five colours have access to fatties. It's my opinion that making the Titan Mythic cycle tight made the complex task of balancing the power of Mythic cards even more difficult.
What's most likely happening with the power creep in mythic is an understanding of what it means to be "Mythic" that's not yet fully realized. Only 12 sets currently exist with the little copper emblems, so it's natural that neither the player nor Wizards has yet figured out what we're supposed to do with them. "Planeswalkers are Mythic?" Yes, that seems reasonable. "A Core set should have 15 Mythic slots?" Core sets come out every year, this can cause one of two problems, either mythics will be reprinted and lose their wow-factor (and saturate Standard), or Mythics will be printed en masse (and lose their wow-factor), and this creates more opportunities for overpowered cards to slip through the cracks. Speaking of unique, Melira, Sylvok Outcast probably should have been Mythic, being "Unique" and all. She may not be Phyrexian Obliterator in terms of power, but where Obliterator is a reprint ++;, Melira is a unique person, with a unique ability shared by no other card in all of Magic. Power shouldn't be an excuse to print a card at mythic, and mythic shouldn't be an excuse to print a powerful card.
Powerful cards and powerful decks will always dominate standard. Whether Ravager Affinity, Faeries, Caw-Blade, or Titans: players, specifically competitive players playing competitively, will always play the "best" deck if they want to win. This also creates a feedback loop: Deck-A is good, therefore Deck-A is played in standard, Deck-A wins in standard, therefore players who want to win play Deck-A, everyone plays Deck-A, therefore the only way to win is to also play Deck-A. I've heard this phenomina of the meta-game called "solving," but I personally think the meta-game's feedback loop is more responsable for shutting-out variance rather than the Standard format being "figured out."
My point being that if Mythics weren't stagnating Standard, some other archetypical deck would. The counterpoint is that Mythics ARE dominating Standard. However, to speak on behalf of the Titans, the variety of decks being played competitively actually seems higher than usual. There's RG Valakut Ramp , UB Control , Sun Titan Control , UR Deciever Twin (Mythic-free), R and WR aggro, Vampires both B and RB, and more than one variant of respective deck, often with colour-splashing and Ascension-shells. The Titans... may actually be diversifying the Standard environment. Or more likely having all of Zendikar block, Scars block, M11, and M12 to choose from is diversifying Standard.
I don't pretend to know what the solution is. There are Mythic Rares that use their copper insignias as excuses to not scale to the same set of standards as other cards. That probably shouldn't be something that occurs on a regular basis. And whatever happens in the Multiverse, Standard will always be funneled into only 2-6 unique decks competing with eachother. It was like that before copper, and remains as such after it. Human nature and mob mentality aren't something we can blame on overpowered cards.
At first I thought mythic rare was 'for flavor reasons' as well, but we have Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer and Melira, Sylvok Outcast both at rare and unflavorful cards like Vengevine and Lotus Cobra at mythic rare. Maybe these are bad examples, as 3/4 of them are green and green looks like it has some definition problems at mythic rare when other colors get efficient creatures like green does for mythics. Has the reason for creating and maintaining this rarity changed? If so, what are the new reasons? It's ok if it's money, I just want to hear it from a WotC employee, not from speculation on a message board.
Yep, that's official, Mythic Rares was just an attempt by Wizards to easily grab money out of our pockets by cheating us into buying more packs, instead of getting more people to buy packs by making the game better, more balanced, more flavorful, and well-designed.
You sold us the idea that Mythic Rares were going to be the showcases of sets, showing the most, I would say, extravageant or orignal card that could not fit a lower rarities. It was the case with Planeswalkers, they were original cards most of the time, that incorporated very flavorful aspect of the set, but now when I see things like Phyrexian Obliterator , Vengevine , and the Titans, I tend to think "What is so great about those cards except that they destroy other decks?".
A great example of a set with Mythic Rares done right was Scars. You had some goofy, flavorful, cards that could be powerful if built around. I don't think MBS and NPH followed Scars' example, or at least when I see cards like Phyrexian Obliterator I tend to think no.
You guys have to be VERY careful with the cards you put at Mythic Rare, this is BY FAR the most controversial aspect of Magic right now and if you guys are not more thoughtful about it, you WILL lose money AS A CONSEQUENCE of losing players!
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block)
