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Jun 14, 2011 -- 8:38AM, fractal wrote:

Jun 14, 2011 -- 5:13AM, 12three45 wrote:

Ghostly prison and Norn's annex are a nonbo with Bassandra. Attempt to attack Adam and neglect to pay-creature is unable to attack despite Bassandra's  best efforts. Good try though. Kazuul and lightmine field work much better.

I thought the creatures were required to attack if able - so if they can't attack Adam (because you're not paying), but could attack someone else, then that's not a legal attack declaration and you need to try again and declare them as attacking someone else?  In other words, the point of Norn's Annex isn't to drain an opponent's mana/life, it's to make sure that those creatures Adam is requiring to attack will go after some other player.

It's a nonbo.  Relevent Rules text:

508.1. First, the active player declares attackers. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 716, "Handling Illegal Actions").

508.1b If the defending player controls any planeswalkers, or the game allows the active player to attack multiple other players, the active player announces which player or planeswalker each of the chosen creatures is attacking.

...

508.1d The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it’s affected by any requirements (effects that say a creature must attack, or that it must attack if some condition is met). If the number of requirements that are being obeyed is fewer than the maximum possible number of requirements that could be obeyed without disobeying any restrictions, the declaration of attackers is illegal. If a creature can’t attack unless a player pays a cost, that player is not required to pay that cost, even if attacking with that creature would increase the number of requirements being obeyed.

The choice of which player/planeswalker to attack is made before the decision on whether or not to pay costs occurs.  The key here is that 508.1 requires the steps to be followed in the order they are presented.




Edit:  Beyond that, great article btw.

Jun 14, 2011 -- 3:07PM, Flyheight wrote:

Jun 14, 2011 -- 8:38AM, fractal wrote:

Jun 14, 2011 -- 5:13AM, 12three45 wrote:

Ghostly prison and Norn's annex are a nonbo with Bassandra. Attempt to attack Adam and neglect to pay-creature is unable to attack despite Bassandra's  best efforts. Good try though. Kazuul and lightmine field work much better.

I thought the creatures were required to attack if able - so if they can't attack Adam (because you're not paying), but could attack someone else, then that's not a legal attack declaration and you need to try again and declare them as attacking someone else?  In other words, the point of Norn's Annex isn't to drain an opponent's mana/life, it's to make sure that those creatures Adam is requiring to attack will go after some other player.

It's a nonbo.  Relevent Rules text:

508.1. First, the active player declares attackers. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 716, "Handling Illegal Actions").

508.1b If the defending player controls any planeswalkers, or the game allows the active player to attack multiple other players, the active player announces which player or planeswalker each of the chosen creatures is attacking.

...

508.1d The active player checks each creature he or she controls to see whether it’s affected by any requirements (effects that say a creature must attack, or that it must attack if some condition is met). If the number of requirements that are being obeyed is fewer than the maximum possible number of requirements that could be obeyed without disobeying any restrictions, the declaration of attackers is illegal. If a creature can’t attack unless a player pays a cost, that player is not required to pay that cost, even if attacking with that creature would increase the number of requirements being obeyed.

The choice of which player/planeswalker to attack is made before the decision on whether or not to pay costs occurs.  The key here is that 508.1 requires the steps to be followed in the order they are presented.




Edit:  Beyond that, great article btw.

The order in which the steps are taken is irrelevant.

If I have a creature that "attacks if able", and Adam has Blazing Archon on the battlefield, then my creature has to attack someone other than Adam (assuming there is another player who can legally be attacked).  If I try to attack Adam, that is an illegal attack because it violates a restriction.  If I try to not attack anyone, that is an illegal attack because it violates a requirement and there exists an attack that does not violate any requirements.

If you replace Blazing Archon with Norn's Annex , the situation is exactly the same, except that I also have the option of paying the cost to attack Adam.  If I try to attack Adam and don't pay the cost, that is an illegal attack because it violates a restriction.  If I try to not attack anyone, that is an illegal attack because it violates a requirement and there exists an attack that does not violate any requirements.  If Adam were the only other player in the game, I would not be forced to attack him, because I am not required to pay the cost for Norn's Annex .  However, I can attack another player without paying any costs, so I must do so.

Jun 15, 2011 -- 5:40AM, 12three45 wrote:

* If, during a player's declare attackers step, a creature is tapped, is affected by a spell or ability that says it can't attack, or hasn't been under that player's control continuously since the turn began (and doesn't have haste), then it doesn't attack. If there's a cost associated with having a creature attack, the player isn't forced to pay that cost, so it doesn't have to attack in that case either.

Sure.  That works well for Leviathan - Basandra targets it, but you don't have to sacrifice the Island s necessary for it to attack.  However, your Grizzly Bears can attack without paying a cost - they just can't attack Adam without paying.  Since they "must attack if able", and they are able to attack without paying a cost, they must do so.  Of course, if all of your other opponents have Propaganda too, then your Bears are off the hook - now they truly can't attack without paying.