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2 years ago ::
May 03, 2011 - 12:45PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2004
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With Melira, Sylvok Outcast  on the battlefield, your Etched Monstrosity  will enter the battlefield with no -1/-1 counters and be 10/10. There'll be a brief mention of this in the Update Bulletin. Sadly, I didn't include this question in the FAQ.
Any chance of an update on the apparent conflict between the second ruling for Doubling Season  and CR614.12?
ΦΦΦΦΦ
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2 years ago ::
May 03, 2011 - 12:51PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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Any chance of an update on the apparent conflict between the second ruling for Doubling Season and CR614.12?
How is that a conflict? We run through 614.12 to see whether the replacement effect that says it enters the battlefield with counters applies. It does. Since that replacement effect is applicable, doubling season's replacement effect also applies.
616. Interaction of Replacement and/or Prevention Effects
616.2. A replacement or prevention effect can become applicable to an event as the result of another replacement or prevention effect that modifies the event.
Example: One effect reads "If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead," and another reads "If you would draw a card, return a card from your graveyard to your hand instead." Both effects combine (regardless of the order they came into existence): Instead of gaining 1 life, the player puts a card from his or her graveyard into his or her hand.
Doubling season's replacement effect is not one that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield, so 614.12 is irrelevant to whether or not doubling season applies (not that it would matter... doubling season's effect would pass everything required by 614.12, because doubling season doesn't care about the characteristics of the object entering the battlefield).
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2 years ago ::
May 03, 2011 - 1:34PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
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Doubling season's replacement effect is not one that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield, so 614.12 is irrelevant to whether or not doubling season applies (not that it would matter... doubling season's effect would pass everything required by 614.12, because doubling season doesn't care about the characteristics of the object entering the battlefield).
isn't it though? if I drop a Vigean Hydropon  , it shows up with 10 +1/+1 counters which means that the effect has to modify the way it entered the field. Meaning there is no point where it is on the field with just 5 counters.
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2 years ago ::
May 03, 2011 - 1:44PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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isn't it though?
No. 614.12 directs the reader to 614.1c and 614.1d for the definition of replacement effects that modify how a permanent enters the battlefield.
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) [...]
Doubling season  's effect matches the description of neither of those rules.
614.1c Effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . " are replacement effects.
614.1d Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . ." or "[Objects] enter the battlefield . . ." are replacement effects.
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2 years ago ::
May 03, 2011 - 1:50PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2004
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Doubling season's replacement effect is not one that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield, so 614.12 is irrelevant to whether or not doubling season applies (not that it would matter... doubling season's effect would pass everything required by 614.12, because doubling season doesn't care about the characteristics of the object entering the battlefield).
isn't it though? if I drop a Vigean Hydropon , it shows up with 10 +1/+1 counters which means that the effect has to modify the way it entered the field. Meaning there is no point where it is on the field with just 5 counters.
Doubling Season 's second ability's effect can modify how permanents enter the battlefield, but there is still no inconsistency. Doubling Season needs to know that counters will be placed on the permanent that will be created as part of the event, and that's all it needs to know to apply.
Edit: Well, perhaps Doubling Season doesn't directly modify how a permanent enters the battlefield; it modifies how another effect modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield.
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2 years ago ::
May 03, 2011 - 2:21PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Feb 27, 2007
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Edit: Well, perhaps Doubling Season doesn't directly modify how a permanent enters the battlefield; it modifies how another effect modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield.
Exactly.
And we don't need a ruling to tell us that Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield without counters when Melira is in play. That's already covered by the rules.
We're just waiting for Tatterkite.
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