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Switch to Forum Live View The Nature of Green
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2011 - 10:16PM #1
Luzifus
Date Joined: Mar 9, 2008
Posts: 171
[born in the Planeswalkers guide to NPH thread]


There is a little discussion growing about the philosophy of the color Green. While most colors seem rather well outlined and coherent, Green seems to have some issues and bigger internal conflicts than the other ingredients in the Color Pie.

It seems to me, that the topic is of such vastness and complexity that it deserves the space only an own thread can offer.

Feel free to discuss.

For starters, some of the points outlined by the various participants of the on-going discussion:

Green is the color most appropriately associated with the natural world,  despite w/e else you may think; at the very least read Rosewater's  article.  If you don't like the color wheel, or his take, then you  simply don't like green as magic has outlined it.  That's fine, let's  just move on.  Green wants things to take a holistic and harmonic view  of the world, minimizing trying to rationalize, dissect, and otherwise  abuse the naturally occurring forces in the world, as well as the things  that happen to you that you have no control over.  It is certainly the  most stoic of the 5 colors - the least reactionary.




The problem for me is that Green's  philosophy, as described in Rosewater's articles, is either inadequately  defined or blatantly inconsistent. That leads to problems like the  Green Phyrexians: with an obviously hypocritical ideology. I think we  need to improve our depictions of Green. Green has a very strong  mechanical background, but we need to sit down and work a way to give  Green a good philosophical background too.


(Red has this problem on-and-off as well, to be fair. White, Blue, and Black are all pretty straightforward.)


(...)

So  we can offer alternate definitions like that. DavFlamerock has another  attempt in his signature, by willpell. That said defining Green in terms  of holism, as I think you're leaning towards and willpell explicitly  does, pretty obviously doesn't work either. Holism is far too vague a  concept and can fit into any colour capable of seeing the metaphorical  big picture.


(...)

You  can make some arguments that there are internal tensions in other  colours. Red has a constant issue with freedom: what if I use my freedom  to take away yours? That's why Red contains bullies and oppressors, and  freedom fighters and liberators. There's an internal clash.

There  are some others. White can end up in cases where its moral code demands  contradictory things: the whole lesser evil problem. Black can  encounter situations where self-interest requires Black to abandon its  own ideal of self-interest. Blue wants to be rational, but is unable to  rationally defend its own desire there.

For the most part these  internal conflicts are good. There are little fractures in every colour.  It is in responding to the problems posed by these fractures that we  see individuals' true mettle. But at the very least, in the cases of  White, Black, and Blue, you can produce coherent, internally consistent  interpretations of the colour. Red has a little more trouble, but I  don't think it's impossible. The essence of the colour is fine: WotC  just needs to depict it a little better. Red's problem is  implementation, not the basic ideas.

Green's issue is that its  internal conflict isn't just a little fracture at the edges, but an  immense ravine running through the very heart of the colour. Red has  issues with what freedom allows and if you can use freedom to restrict  freedom: but the idea is sound. White gets into problems when it starts  to worry about what morality actually dictates and under what  circumstances you can break your morality: but morality itself, as an  ideal, is unproblematic. Similarly for rationality and self-interest.  They lead to some issues, but they are not the issues themselves.

It's just... nature doesn't lead to some minor fringe issues. Nature is the issue.




Have fun! And stay nice children

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2011 - 10:56PM #2
Skibo_the_first
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Date Joined: Mar 13, 2004
Posts: 11,640

Yep, the color pie is breached almost every set because it's not meant to handle specific cases.

The color pie works on a grand scale. But when you zoom in on one person, or even one plane, not everything about the color pie will hold up.

This isn't a problem with the pie, it's designed to fit the needs of the game, not the needs of the storyline.

Are the green Phyrexians violating the color pie? Sure. But no culture could exist if they followed a mono-colored slice of the color pie. They'd be raving lunatics.

… and then, the squirrels came.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2011 - 11:19PM #3
PlagueEngine
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2011
Posts: 1,490
Mhm. A truly mono-colored individual would be seen by society as very unpleasant at the least and dangerously insane at the worst.

Green has always been a tough nut to crack. It definitely appears to be the least defined.

"White, what do you believe in?" "The betterment of the people."
"Blue?" "Progress."
"Black?" "Myself."
"Green?" "NATURE."
"Nature?" "Yes. Nature. The natural world around us."
"That's not an ethos. That's just existence. I believe in nature too. Because it exists."
"Yeah, but, you know... trees and stuff."

It just seems to fall flat on its face, a little. The other colors have established depth in their beliefs, whereas green is still stuck with trees and stuff.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2011 - 11:28PM #4
Luzifus
Date Joined: Mar 9, 2008
Posts: 171
Before I will dive deeper into the matter by rereading some of the color philosophy articles I last read years ago, here is a little meditation on Green. It's not fundated or thought-out at all, just what my gut says.


When I think about green, I think about beauty. Beauty in its most original sense. Every color has its aesthetic, but take enough of it away and you won't recognize it anymore. Not so with green. There is always something left that carries the seed of new beauty in it. No matter what you do, you can't destroy Green. Green is growth, Green is birth. If you kill it, you will just nurture its children. Green is life and Green is death. Green means that life and death are nothing but the two sides of the same coin. Green is what makes you breathe, what gives your heart the power to beat. Green is this one thing you can't quite put your finger on, it's this movement in the corner of the eye. It's this thought you just had and when you want to mouth it it is gone. Green is all the things you never think about because you just do them. Green is the peace of a summer morning, the calmness of your mind when you are content. Green is rythm. Green is change, but unchanging. It is the coming and going of the seasons, the leaves that fall and the life that comes from dust. Green is that that stands above all else. Green is everything that cannot be controlled. Green is the sunset you see and realize that nothing, no poem, no building, no weapon, no melody, no theory, no formula, nothing created by man can ever be as beautiful as this universal force that lies in everything. Green is.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2011 - 1:04AM #5
Gamma-Mage
Date Joined: May 8, 2009
Posts: 1,874
Saying that green believes in nature is like saying that red believes in fire and that blue believes in knowledge. Which is silly. These are tools that they use, not beliefs.

Green believes that there is a beauty in nature. It believes that in nature can be found all the tools a mage needs. It believes that the greatest power that can be wielded is, well, a creature with the greatest power. It likes stuff that helps it find creatures, and stuff that keeps its creatures alive. It likes stuff that messes with opposing counters and kill spells. It loves Great Sable Stag , and wonders why Wizards keeps printing stuff like Autumn's Veil when it could just reprint the Stag. It loves Thrun, the Last Troll . It plays Thrun and laughs at you.

Green believes that the beauty in nature should be preserved. It will declare nature reserves, conservancies and protected areas. It will look after endangered species. It will argue with gas companies because they want to dig up the Karoo. Yes, we know it's practically a desert, and the farms there have very low production rates. We know it has vast expanses of nothing. But it's the Karoo. You don't dig up the Karoo.

Green believes in the sanctity of life. It doesn't kill creatures. But it will drop a basilisk and dare you to attack. It will blow up your artifacts because they are evil and unnatural. And then it will use its own artifacts, and say that its ok, because its using them to protect nature.

Green does not believe in evolution. If it did, it would not care that the Giant Panda was going extinct. It wouldn't set up sanctuaries and captive-breeding programmes. Because, obviously, a creature that relies so much on a single habitat, and that cannot breed fast enough to maintain it's population, is impractical and deserves to go extinct.
Evil doesn't always triumph. - Ajani Goldmane
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2011 - 2:52AM #6
Shamsiel
Date Joined: Mar 7, 2011
Posts: 1,772
is also pure spirituality. has monopoly over organised religion, but it is who genuinely feels that there is a higher purpose, a derivative of its hollistic world view. is the colour of druids, it is the colour of pagan imagery, and in Dominaria Gaea is real and is

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2011 - 2:57AM #7
Irandrura
Date Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 314

Yep, the color pie is breached almost every set because it's not meant to handle specific cases.




As I understand this topic, we are not talking about specific cases. We are talking about Green in the abstract.

"White, what do you believe in?" "The betterment of the people."
"Blue?" "Progress."
"Black?" "Myself."
"Green?" "NATURE."
"Nature?" "Yes. Nature. The natural world around us."
"That's not an ethos. That's just existence. I believe in nature too. Because it exists."
"Yeah, but, you know... trees and stuff."




[nitpick] I'd quibble 'progress' for Blue. Progress has to be defined in terms of a goal. White wants social progress. Black wants to progressively increase its own power. Blue might answer that question 'the acquisition of knowledge' or somesuch.

[/nitpick]

Saying that green believes in nature is like saying that red believes in  fire and that blue believes in knowledge. Which is silly. These are  tools that they use, not beliefs.




I would say that Blue believes in knowledge, at least this far. Every other colour views knowledge as a tool. For Blue, knowledge is an end in itself. In terms of colour relationships, Blue likes Black and White because both of them understand how immensely powerful and important knowledge is and prioritise the methodical acquisition and application of knowledge: but both Black and White think that knowledge is instrumental. Black is always saying 'and how does this knowledge benefit me?' and White is always saying 'and how does this knowledge benefit everyone?'.

Blue, it seems to me, doesn't ask that question. Blue will say, 'But it's... it's knowledge. You don't need a reason to want it. You just do. Knowledge is an end in itself.'

(When I toyed with colour interviews of my own, I had the Blue character asked about this, and the response was just that curiosity is an innate drive. Sapient creatures are curious; that is, they seek knowledge. The drive is universal. Sure, some sapient creatures, e.g. goblins, are really bad at it, and that's why they're not going to learn much over the long term, but it is the inherent nature of intelligent beings to be curious.)

Green believes that there is a beauty in nature. It believes that in nature can be found all the tools a mage needs.
[...]
Green believes that the beauty in nature should be preserved.




Questions!

What is nature?

What is the difference between natural beauty and unnatural beauty?

To pick an example, consider the beauty of mathematics. (Wiki link because I'm lazy.) Is that natural beauty or not? Does Green appreciate it?

Intuitively it seems weird to say that Green likes mathematical beauty. Green is usually portrayed as very grounded, and the least abstract colour. Appreciating the symmetry of mathematics intuitively feels more Blue. But mathematical patterns illustrate the entire natural world. Green appreciates the beauty of natural things: does Green appreciate the beauty of the Fibonacci sequence?



is also pure spirituality. has monopoly over organised religion, but it is who genuinely feels that there is a higher purpose, a derivative of its hollistic world view. is the colour of druids, it is the colour of pagan imagery, and in Dominaria Gaea is real and is




(Fixing those colour-smilies is getting annoying...)

What is spirituality?

Haven't we agreed before that you can find religious/spiritual beliefs in every colour?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2011 - 4:06AM #8
Shamsiel
Date Joined: Mar 7, 2011
Posts: 1,772
Like knowledge is a tool for everyone but , spirituality is a tool for everyone but . is spirtual for the sake of offering justification for the moral core and to make its community act like it feels it should, uses spirituality in the hopes a deity offers to help gaining power, pure is usually not very spiritual (as discussed before; when it is spiritual it is usually out of curiousity for the divine or to gain power like ), and is spiritual for several reasons, ranging from emotional ones to ones that parallel or , to justify its freedom or to gain power.

is spiritual for the sake of being spiritual, and to it it is far too much a core of its being to not be present in pure , while other colours can easily not be spiritual.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2011 - 4:33AM #9
Irandrura
Date Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 314
But what does it even mean to be spiritual? What is it that Green values?
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2011 - 4:58AM #10
Shamsiel
Date Joined: Mar 7, 2011
Posts: 1,772
I'm guessing the concept of there being a purpose. Green believes everyone has a role to be filled, hence that there is a higher force dictating this.

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