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2 years ago ::
Apr 20, 2011 - 5:58PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2008
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This thread is for discussion of this week's Top Decks article, which goes live Thursday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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2 years ago ::
Apr 20, 2011 - 9:56PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Dec 31, 2003
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Enough with the damage control spin. The outcry against Jace isn't because it hit 32 out of 32 in one top-8. Its because it is such a powerful card that is warping standard. The complaints didn't spring up overnight. They have been building as Jace used more and more. Of all the decks you showed, only 1 didn't carry Jace, and 1 other didn't carry the super Jace everyone hates.
Yes, Caw-Blade is a powerful deck. But, how much does that deck weaken when Jace is dropped out? Can you show one game where a person who was tied or behind when their opponent dropped Jace that they won? Jace isn't an "I win the game" card as soon as its played. Nor is it a "I can't lose the game" card.
Here is the most simplistic way to explain this. Find a deck in standard that doesn't have Jace and say that the deck wouldn't improve if Jace was added. Even Tommy Luke's Big Red deck would gain a boost. The only difficulty in adding is figuring out how to handle the lands so you don't weaken Koth.
As for those not using Jace, do they choose not to add Jace or do they not own Jace (possibly because of how expensive Jace is)?
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2 years ago ::
Apr 20, 2011 - 10:40PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2011
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"Caw-Blade is a better-performing deck in Standard than... well... almost any deck that has ever operated at scale."
Look at me, I'm Mike Flores and I like to grossly exaggerate things that get me excited!
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2 years ago ::
Apr 20, 2011 - 10:57PM
#4
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I agree with the comment posted above. The argument here that Jace isn't a problem because caw-blade takes skill to play/ is interactive fails on multiple levels. The point is, out of a tournament of several hundred players the best 8 decks all had 4 copies. Reguardless of the fact that Jace doesn't kill you immediatley when he hits the board (though he often kills you eventually), you're not winning a tournment in this standard if you don't own $350+ in Jace the Mind Sculptors. This is not a healthy format.
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2 years ago ::
Apr 20, 2011 - 11:02PM
#5
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I quote Adam Forsythe's article on why the 'Clamp was banned: "Note that the ideal Tooth and Nail plan makes no use of 1-toughness creatures, but the way to make this deck a winner is to include sixteen one-toughness creatures and four Skullclamp s! In other words, it was banned because it was everywhere, showing up all over the place, even in decks where it would normally make no sense. Now, with that in mind, look at the Genesis wave deck. This is an almost entirely green ramp deck based on playing a triple-green costed spell and getting huge amounts of power onto the board quickly... and it runs 4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor , a card where, unlike the rest, you lose a lot of power if you get multiples off a Genesis wave. A monogreen deck is running 4 cards that can potentially hurt their game plan, because of the raw power. Just something to think about. Now that I mention it, there was also an elves deck in a top 16 (I forget which) that ran Jaces. And I don't think the problem is Caw-Blade. Flores is right about how Caw-Blade isn't the same as the other Boogeymen. The problem is that it is right now, because of one card. Jace. It's not even Caw-Blade. The best deck, the second best deck, and a lot of tier-2 decks all run Jace. Looking at this list, it seems like every deck either has 3-4 Mindsculptors total main and side, or is dedicated toward fighting Jace. And there are a whole lot more successful decks in the first category. Also, a correction: Mr. Flores, while I understand where you're coming from, I doubt more than half the decks played Jace, because of the possible jaces, more than half were played. What you assume is that everyone played 4. If someone played 3 and someone else played 1, that would up the count. So, it's probably more along the lines of 60% or even two thirds of the top 8 decks that played Jace, the Mind Sculptor
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2 years ago ::
Apr 20, 2011 - 11:09PM
#6
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I thought this article would have been more accurately titled "Arguments for not to Banning JtMS".
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2 years ago ::
Apr 21, 2011 - 12:15AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2005
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Here is the most simplistic way to explain this. Find a deck in standard that doesn't have Jace and say that the deck wouldn't improve if Jace was added. Even Tommy Luke's Big Red deck would gain a boost. The only difficulty in adding is figuring out how to handle the lands so you don't weaken Koth.
As for those not using Jace, do they choose not to add Jace or do they not own Jace (possibly because of how expensive Jace is)?
Tommy here to shed some light on why I chose not to run Jace, the Mindsculptor in my Big Red list (I seriously can't believe I'm entertaining this thought). Why in Zeus' butt hole would I run Jace in Big Red? The deck I ran is called Big Red. Did you even notice my Tectonic Edge count? I only ran two? Why is that? It's because the deck needs boat loads of red mana aka mountains. Splashing 10 or more non-mountains hurts the deck. I run Obsidian Fireheart too (which was co-mvp at my Qualifiers btw) and that guy eats red mana like nobody's buisness. Trust me. Jace is good but he's not good enough for me to drastically change the deck to support him.
Btw, here's my record in the last 5 tournaments vs Jace decks with my deck list:
12 Wins / 1 Loss
Anyways, you're overreacting. I can't believe you actually believe anyone who has Jace, TMS x4 should splash blue to support him in whatever list they're running. Do us all a favor. Go build Boros and RDW and improve those lists by adding 4 Jace to them. Let us know how that worked for you ok.
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2 years ago ::
Apr 21, 2011 - 12:19AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2005
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you're not winning a tournment in this standard if you don't own $350+ in Jace the Mind Sculptors.
Sorry but I have to disagree. I took first while my friend took second in the Denver Nat Qualifiers. Both of us went undefeated with non-Jace list.
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2 years ago ::
Apr 21, 2011 - 12:22AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2008
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Several of the decks listed in the article ran red. Not one of them even had a single copy of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle . It seems odd to be turning down a free Lightning Bolt , but no doubt there's a good reason for this.
Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!     I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.
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2 years ago ::
Apr 21, 2011 - 12:47AM
#10
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Here is the most simplistic way to explain this. Find a deck in standard that doesn't have Jace and say that the deck wouldn't improve if Jace was added. Even Tommy Luke's Big Red deck would gain a boost. The only difficulty in adding is figuring out how to handle the lands so you don't weaken Koth.
As for those not using Jace, do they choose not to add Jace or do they not own Jace (possibly because of how expensive Jace is)?
Tommy here to shed some light on why I chose not to run Jace, the Mindsculptor in my Big Red list (I seriously can't believe I'm entertaining this thought). Why in Zeus' butt hole would I run Jace in Big Red? The deck I ran is called Big Red. Did you even notice my Tectonic Edge count? I only ran two? Why is that? It's because the deck needs boat loads of red mana aka mountains. Splashing 10 or more non-mountains hurts the deck. I run Obsidian Fireheart too (which was co-mvp at my Qualifiers btw) and that guy eats red mana like nobody's buisness. Trust me. Jace is good but he's not good enough for me to drastically change the deck to support him.
I think he meant if you could you would, not that you're big red deck is missing four jace, it isn't. He meant if Jace was I dunno red, you'd play it. Or perhaps less drastically committed to blue.
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