Situation A. I have on the battlefield a Dandân , a Prismatic Omen , a Forest, but no other lands. I play a Heart of Yavimaya , returning the Forest. Does the Dandân survive? Why or why not?
Assuming the answer is that the Dandân dies, here's a more tricky variant.
Situation B. I have on the battlefield a Dandân, a Prismatic Omen, two Mountains and one Forest but no other lands. I now cast a Scapeshift , when it resolves I sacrifice the two Mountains to it, and find a Swamp and a Heart of Yavimaya, then choose to sacrifice the Forest to the Heart. Does the Dandân survive?
(I've recently asked this on irc but we aren't sure about the solution so please let me ask it here too.)
Situation A. I have on the battlefield a Dandân , a Prismatic Omen , a Forest, but no other lands. I play a Heart of Yavimaya , returning the Forest. Does the Dandân survive? Why or why not?
Assuming the answer is that the Dandân dies, here's a more tricky variant.
Situation B. I have on the battlefield a Dandân, a Prismatic Omen, two Mountains and one Forest but no other lands. I now cast a Scapeshift , when it resolves I sacrifice the two Mountains to it, and find a Swamp and a Heart of Yavimaya, then choose to sacrifice the Forest to the Heart. Does the Dandân survive?
(I've recently asked this on irc but we aren't sure about the solution so please let me ask it here too.)
You keep the fish. The event "Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield" becomes "sacrifice a forest, if you do, heart of yavimaya enters the battlefield" Say you do; Heart of yavimaya enters the battlefield and becomes, amongst other things, an Island due to the Omen's effect. Dandan then goes "oh, hey, ann event just happened; is it relevant to me?", sees that there is still an Island under your control and doesn't trigger.
Again, yes. All of that is basially one big event.
You seem to describe this situation from the point of view of State-Based-Actions, which do not care about «unstable» situations occuring during resolutions. But this case is different. (you knew that, of course)
Dandân 's ability is triggered: il WILL trigger (and demand sacrifice) if, at any point in time, the player controls no Island.
This includes having no Island in the process of any single happening: even if the absence of Island happens over a very short duration, the Fish still dies.
And remember: actions listed on cards are to be taken one at a time, in the written order.
So...
The event is : "Sacrifice a Forest and put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield."
My question is:
Isn't there a very short moment between the Forest leaving and HoY entering? Isn't there a point in time where the player controls no Island?
As short as it can be, such a moment is all that's needed to trigger the Fish.
So, is there?
(I don't know! Do you?) (OK, prove it!)
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Situation A: I think the fish is sacrificed. Situation B: I think you keep the fish.
(OK, prove it!)
OK here it goes....
The relevant rule for this situation:
603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They’ll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers . (Note that state triggers aren’t the same as state-basedactions.) A state-triggered ability doesn’t trigger again until the ability has resolved, has beenvcountered, or has otherwise left the stack. Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.
This means that if at any time the player controls no islands, the Dandân 's triggered ability becomes triggered and waits until the next time a player would receive priority to go onto the stack.
The oracle ruling for Heart of Yavimaya : You have to sacrifice a forest before this card is put onto the battlefield, and no matter how it is put onto the battlefield. (bolding mine)
Therefore in Situation A there is a point in time when the player controls no islands: after he sacrifices the forest, and before the Heart enters the battlefield. It is at this time that Dandân's ability would trigger. After the Heart enters the battlefield the Dandan's triggered ability would go upon the stack, and resolve after players pass priority.
In Situation B, the swamp enters the battlefield and immediately becomes all other land types. Simultaneously the player chooses to sacrifice sacrifices [Edit: the player can't "choose" to sacrifice it] the forest, and then the Heart enters the battlefield. Because there is no time period in situation B where the player controls no islands, Dandân's ability does not trigger.
I think Chaikov is right, at least in the first scenario; Dandan's ability will trigger.
Dandan's ability is a state-based trigger that looks for a gamestate matching the trigger condition. So the question is, is there a gamestate between the sacrifice of the Forest and the entry of Heart of Yavimaya?
The answer is yes.
You can consider the game to be a series of gamestates linked by events; it's a bit like old cinema films in that respect. When an event occurs, it is really the transformation of one gamestate into another, just as two adjacent frames of a film show two frozen scenes that you can compare, identifying the differences between them.
In Magic, when an event is about to happen, you determine what the event is, then perform it. Replacement and prevention effects get applied in the "window" where you are working out what the next event is.
If Heart of Yavimaya would enter the battlefield, sacrifice a Forest instead. If you do, put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.
This ability watches for the Heart to enter the battlefield, and replaces the event "Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield."
When you want to know how many discrete actions are present in an instruction, count the number of separate verbs in the instruction. For Heart of Yavimaya, they are :
Sacrifice a forest
Put HoY (onto the battlefield or into its owner's graveyard.)
That means the replacement effect replaces one action with two. So you perform the first, creating a new gamestate, then work out what the second action is and perform that. Consequently there is a gamestate after the Forest is sacrificed and before the HoY enters the battlefield in which there is no Island (or any other land) controlled by Dandan's controller.
In the first scenario, the OP stated that he controls no other lands; therefore in the gamestate after he sacrifices the Forest, he controls no lands and Dandan will trigger.
There's another complication with the second scenario, and that is well delineated by EternalHostility.
In Situation B, the swamp enters the battlefield and immediately becomes all other land types. Simultaneously the player chooses to sacrifice the forest, and then the Heart enters the battlefield. Because there is no time period in situation B where the player controls no islands, Dandân's ability does not trigger.
When you come to put the lands on the battlefield, what does HoY's replacement transform the action "Put the cards searched out onto the battlefield" into? Is it "Sacrifice a Forest," or "Put all cards searched out except HoY onto the battlefield and sacrifice a Forest"?
On reflection I think it's the latter. I can't see any reason why the replacement effect generated by HoY could or should hold up the movement of other lands found by Scapeshift. However, I'd be interested to learn if I'm right.
Situation A. I have on the battlefield a Dandân , a Prismatic Omen , a Forest, but no other lands. I play a Heart of Yavimaya , returning the Forest. Does the Dandân survive? Why or why not?
Assuming the answer is that the Dandân dies, here's a more tricky variant.
Situation B. I have on the battlefield a Dandân, a Prismatic Omen, two Mountains and one Forest but no other lands. I now cast a Scapeshift , when it resolves I sacrifice the two Mountains to it, and find a Swamp and a Heart of Yavimaya, then choose to sacrifice the Forest to the Heart. Does the Dandân survive?
EternalHostility is mostly correct about the justifications, but draws the wrong conclusion for the second sceanrio.
There's also this rule: 603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability's trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn't do anything at this point.
Chaikov already alluded to it; it means that a trigger will fire even if its condition is only met at a time state-based actions aren't checked and performed, i.e. even in the middle of something else.
First scenario... Normally, playing a land results in you putting that land on the battlefield. In this case, Heart of Yavimaya 's own replacement effect changes the event [put Heart onto the battlefield] to [sacrifice a Forest, and put Heart onto the battlefield]. These are two distinct actions that happen sequentially: you first sacrifice a Forest, then you put HoY onto the battlefield. Because they happen sequentially there is a moment in which you don't control an Island, so Dandân 's ability triggers and will go on the stack when you would get priority after putting Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield.
Second scenario: This works exactly the same as the same. The initial event is [put Swamp and Heart onto the battlefield]; Heart of Yavimaya 's replacement effect changes that to [sacrifice a Forest, and put Swamp and Heart onto the Battlefield]. Scapeshift tells you to put the searched for lands onto the battlefield simultaneously, and Heart's replacement effect doesn't change that. Even with the replacement effect, they still enter the battlefield simultaneously, so you sacrifice the forest before the two new lands enter, so again there's a moment in time when you control no Island, so Dandân ability triggers.
EDIT: I see Merestil's point, but I disagree. Without really being able to point to anything that nacks me up, unfortunately.
Thanks for the clarification, GoblinBasar and Merestil. Since HoY's Oracle Text says:
If Heart of Yavimaya would enter the battlefield, sacrifice a Forest instead. If you do, put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.
I was thinking the events went something like this:
[Scapeshift resolves, player sacrifices 2 lands and finds a swamp and HoY in his library] then
1: Put [the selected lands] onto the battlefield tapped. 2: Shuffle Library
Would be changed to:
1a: Put [the selected lands] except HoY onto the battlefield tapped and sacrifice a forest 1b: If a forest was sacrificed put HoY onto the battlefield, If it wasn't put HoY into it's owners graveyard 2: Shuffle Library
I looked for some clarification in the rules but could not find any. Can you [or anyone] shed some additional light on why the forest sacrifice isn't simultaneous with the swamp entering the battlefield?
I have an additional question:
In Situation B, When the Heart enters the battlefield, does it enter tapped or untapped?
I would say that it would enter untapped, because the event "Put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield tapped" is replaced with "Sacrifice a Forest". Since the forest is available, it is sacrificed, and Yavimaya then enters the battlefield (as a result of the forest sacrifice, not the Scapeshift), untapped.
I was thinking the events went something like this:
[Scapeshift resolves, player sacrifices 2 lands and finds a swamp and HoY in his library] then
1: Put [the selected lands] onto the battlefield tapped. 2: Shuffle Library
would be changed to:
1a: "Put [the selected lands] except HoY onto the battlefield tapped and sacrifice a forest" 1b: If a forest was sacrificed put HoY onto the battlefield, If it wasn't put HoY into it's owners graveyard" 2: Shuffle Library
I looked for some clarification in the rules but could not find any. Can you [or anyone] shed some additional light on why the forest sacrifice isn't simultaneous with the swamp entering the battlefield?
I know I can't; not being a Rules Adviser or Judge I don't have access to the Judge lists. Maybe I should requalify.
I have an additional question:
In Situation B, When the Heart enters the battlefield, does it enter tapped or untapped?
I would say that it would enter untapped, because the event "Put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield tapped" is replaced with "Sacrifice a Forest". Since the forest is available, it is sacrificed, and Yavimaya then enters the battlefield (as a result of the forest sacrifice, not the Scapeshift), untapped.
Is this correct?
No, it enters tapped.
After the forst is sacrificed, the next event is to put the HoY onto the battlefield. Since this a discrete event, you look for replacement effects that might apply to the HoY entering the battlefield, other than HoY's own effect (which has already applied.) Unfortunately you find one. Any ability which says you put something on the battlefield tapped generates a replacement effect. Since this has not applied to HoY, it gets applied.
ETA. Would it though? I need to think this through.
Thanks for the clarification, GoblinBasar and Merestil. Since HoY's Oracle Text says:
If Heart of Yavimaya would enter the battlefield, sacrifice a Forest instead. If you do, put Heart of Yavimaya onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.
I was thinking the events went something like this:
[Scapeshift resolves, player sacrifices 2 lands and finds a swamp and HoY in his library] then
1: Put [the selected lands] onto the battlefield tapped. 2: Shuffle Library
would be changed to:
1a: "Put [the selected lands] except HoY onto the battlefield tapped and sacrifice a forest" 1b: If a forest was sacrificed put HoY onto the battlefield, If it wasn't put HoY into it's owners graveyard" 2: Shuffle Library
I looked for some clarification in the rules but could not find any. Can you [or anyone] shed some additional light on why the forest sacrifice isn't simultaneous with the swamp entering the battlefield?
No, unfortunately I can't point to hard and fast evidence. I'll share my thoughts, though. First, Scapeshift tells you to put all all the land cards you found onto the battlefield as one big action, so I read the event as [put (all land cards) onto the battlefield] rather than as [put one land card onto the battlefield and put the second land card onto the battlefield and ...]. Therefor, if something needs to happen before one particular of those land cards can enter the battlefield, it necessarily has to happen before all land cards can enter the battlefield. Second, consider the following case: your opponent controls a Tunnel Ignus ; you have not had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn. You cast and resolve Scapeshift , finding two Swamps. You put both Swamps onto the battlefield simultaneously; immediately afterwards, Tunnel Ignus sees that two lands entered the battlefield, and that for each of those two lands, you had another land enter the battlefield under your control, so Ignus will trigger twice, resulting in 6 damage to you. Now substitute Heart of Yavimaya for one of the Swamps. By your and Merestil's interpretation, Ignus would trigger only once, because the Swamp and the Heart enter one after the other.
As I said, this (and especially the Ignus interaction) is no proof that my interpretation is correct.
Game state (before Heart of Yavimaya entering the battlefield) --> Event (Heart of Yavimaya enters the battlefield) --> Game state (Heart of Yavimaya is on the battlefield).
State triggers trigger on particular game states, not on events. There is no game state where no island is on the battlefield, so Dandân survives.
Situation B:
Game state (before sacrificing lands) --> Event (Sacrifice any number of lands) --> Game state (before searching lands) --> Event (Search your library for that many land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped) --> Game state (after searching lands).
Same that situation A. Dandân survives.
Edit: I'm not so sure about situation B, because I'm not certain that "Search your library for that many land cards" and "put them onto the battlefield tapped" are one event.
