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2 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2011 - 11:12AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2009
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I suppose it would be better to have some discussion than not to have one. I will post an updated decklist of what I am working on. I have gone through a bunch of deck lists, checked out results from players running Naya in the Grand Prix last weekend, and studied their weaknesses. The main problem matchup seemed to be the RG Valakut/Scapeshift/Prismatic Omen deck. Runed Halo  and Leyline of Sanctity  were obvious choices to answer, and I decided to go with the Leyline to help me a: save mana by possibly dropping for free, and b: avoid cascading into non creature spells when trying to recur Vengevine. A fairly experienced player said he dropped the Ranger package due to the deck already having 8 4drops and not needing the utilities he was grabbing. The only cards I would want to grab with Ranger are Scute Mob  , Goldmeadow Harrier  and Scattershot Archer  (great anti-Fae card). The problem is that I would have to fit all 3 in, plus another 3 1drops ( Noble Hierarch  ) and at least 2 Ranger of Eos  ... that is a minimum of 8 cards I have to dedicate to make that happen. Because of this, I too will also not be running Ranger of Eos. Besides, I still have Fauna Shaman  to help recur Vengevine. After making changes to the deck list, it was obvious that my land situation needed to be looked at more carefully. I did include 3x Noble Hierarch , but I didnt have enough of the proper lands to play him on turn 1 consistantly. Adding in a few lands from the SoM set fixed that problem. This is still a work in progress, but I believe I am coming closer to my goal. Critters: 29 4x Vengevine  4x Bloodbraid Elf  4x Kitchen Finks  4x Qasali Pridemage  3x Great Sable Stag  3x Noble Hierarch 2x Fauna Shaman 2x Baneslayer Angel  2x Sun Titan  1x Gaddock Teeg  Other Spells: 6 4x Path to Exile  2x Lightning Bolt  Land: 25 2x Wooded Bastion  2x Raging Ravine  3x Tectonic Edge  3x Arid Mesa  3x Copperline Gorge  3x Razorverge Thicket  1x Rugged Prairie  1x Fire-Lit Thicket  3x Forest 2x Plains 2x Mountain Sideboard: 3x Leyline of Sanctity  3x Volcanic Fallout  3x Fracturing Gust  2x Lightning Bolt 2x Gaddock Teeg / Obstinate Baloth  (not sure which to go with) 1x Baneslayer Angel 1x Great Sable Stag
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2 years ago ::
Jan 26, 2011 - 6:35PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2009
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My concern with you running a Vengevine plan over the standard Zoo list is that you are running Path and Bolt instead of Sparkmage/Collar as your removal suite. If you switch from one to the other, your vengevines will be live far more frequently
old quotes from the Worldwake talk: Mike Turian: While Mark Rosewater made Tarmogoyf, I made Tarmogoyf what he is today Mark Rosewater: Would we ever reprint Tarmogoyf? Maybe. 
174 How many of your friendships have lasted more than ten years? Which of your current friendships do you still feel will be important to you ten years from now?
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2 years ago ::
Jan 30, 2011 - 9:33PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2009
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I dont feel like 6 spells is a whole lot and Sparkmage + Collar is a little clunky for my playing style. I would rather be able to path in response for 1 mana than have to wait a turn and then cast 3 to play and 2 to equip collar (that is if I dont have to use Fauna Shaman to fetch a singleton Sparkmage). collar cascades just the same as a path or bolt does anyway. I have made a little tweaking to my list: Critters: 29 4x Vengevine 4x Bloodbraid Elf 3x Noble Hierarch 3x Fauna Shaman 3x Qasali Pridemage 3x Great Sable Stag 3x Woolly Thoctar 2x Baneslayer Angel 2x Sun Titan 1x Gaddock Teeg 1x Kitchen Finks Other Spells: 6 4x Path to Exile 2x Lightning Bolt Land: 25 2x Wooded Bastion 2x Raging Ravine 3x Tectonic Edge 3x Arid Mesa 3x Copperline Gorge 3x Razorverge Thicket 1x Rugged Prairie 1x Fire-Lit Thicket 3x Forest 2x Plains 2x Mountain Sideboard: 3x Kitchen Finks 2x Obstinate Baloth 1x Great Sable Stag 3x Leyline of Sanctity 2x Lightning Bolt 3x Volcanic Fallout 1x Qasali Pridemage I will probably add in a Stirring Wildwood  in place of a Wooded Bastion to deal with cards like Vendilion Clique  on the off chance that I draw it.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 31, 2011 - 8:12AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2009
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To explain the cascade math: 35 spells in the deck 6 bad cascade spells (IE ones that won't recur Vengevine) 12 spells that CAN NOT be cascaded into. So, 35 - 12 = 23 There are 23 live cascade targets for Bloodbraid Elf. Of those 23 targets, 6 of them are bad cascades that won't recur your vengevines... That translates into a 25% chance of a bad cascade and vengevine not triggering. This is why I don't suggest you run the vengevine plan. You can't play with it reliably occuring. Like if you know you can smash into a mistbind clique and a vendillion clique because you can just cast Bloodbraid post combat and recur vengevine, you will do it. It's more aggressive. Now, since you don't get as live cascades you can't be as agressive. Yes, you will hit 75% of the time with cascades but in my experience you don't want those 25% to cost you any games. If you switch from the Vengevine plan into the more Big threat plan you can: 1. Play Thrun, the Last Troll  2. Keep your removal package 3. Play Behemoth Sledge  4. Play a Ranger Of Eos  Package, including Scute Mob and Figure Of Destiny  . That's all I got.
old quotes from the Worldwake talk: Mike Turian: While Mark Rosewater made Tarmogoyf, I made Tarmogoyf what he is today Mark Rosewater: Would we ever reprint Tarmogoyf? Maybe.
174 How many of your friendships have lasted more than ten years? Which of your current friendships do you still feel will be important to you ten years from now?
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2 years ago ::
Jan 31, 2011 - 9:12AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2009
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I completely understand the math behind my odds of successfully bringing back VV with BBE. I am perfectly ok with having 6 non creature spells and having only about a 73% chance to recur VV with BBE. If I get to the point where I have to recur VV to win, I could probably use the PtE or Bolt anyway. I see a lot of Naya lists with a full set of Path to Exile in the board, which makes me think its worth the risk for a card that is needed anyway... maybe I will put a couple in the board for game 1.
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2 years ago ::
Feb 09, 2011 - 8:06AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2009
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taking your advice, along with a few others, I have changed my deck list a bit, primarily by moving the bolts to the board. Keep in mind the maindeck will change depending on what I see when I get to a tournament. If there is lots of RDW, I will probably go 4x finks main. lots of fae and jund, 4 stags. lots of steel and RG ramp, 4 Pridemages, etc... I usually make the final call the day of depending on what the meta looks like. Right now I am trying to tweak the sideboard and find another answer to Fae, Gobbos, Elfs, Steel, etc.. than Volcanic Fallout . Mainly I dont want to mess up my BBE -> VV cascades if I dont have to and I dont want to wipe out my own guys either. Any other thoughts about top decks I might not have answers for would be great advice as well. Critters: 31 4x Vengevine 4x Bloodbraid Elf 3x Noble Hierarch 3x Fauna Shaman 3x Woolly Thoctar  3x Qasali Pridemage 3x Kitchen Finks 3x Great Sable Stag 2x Baneslayer Angel 2x Sun Titan 1x Gaddock Teeg Other Spells: 4x Path to Exile Land: 25 3x Copperline Gorge 3x Razorverge Thicket 3x Tectonic Edge 3x Arid Mesa 2x Raging Ravine 1x Wooded Bastion 1x Stirring Wildwood 1x Rugged Prairie 1x Fire-Lit Thicket 3x Forest 2x Plains 2x Mountain Sideboard: 4x Lightning Bolt 3x Leyline of Sanctity 3x Volcanic Fallout or ??? 2x Obstinate Baloth 1x Kitchen Finks 1x Great Sable Stag 1x Qasali Pridemage I am thinking of maybe throwing in Flame Slash  in for Lightning Bolt . someone suggested Scattershot Archer or Hero of Oxid Ridge  (which I really like for getting around those pesky Elspeth tokens). I could just make room for Boggart Ram-Gang  maindeck too. What do ya think?
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2 years ago ::
Feb 27, 2011 - 6:00AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jul 24, 2009
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I ended up hitting top 8 with this deck last night. The only loss I took during swiss was to Bant Aggro which relied on Mirran Crusader  getting pumped by Elspeth for 10 in the air. I was killed by this on turn 4 when he ramped with a manabird. Critters: 32 4x Vengevine 4x Bloodbraid Elf 4x Noble Hierarch 3x Fauna Shaman 3x Woolly Thoctar 3x Qasali Pridemage 3x Kitchen Finks 3x Boggart Ram-Gang 3x Baneslayer Angel 2x Sun Titan Other Spells: 3 3x Path to Exile Land: 25 4x Razorverge Thicket 3x Copperline Gorge 3x Arid Mesa 2x Tectonic Edge 2x Raging Ravine 1x Wooded Bastion 1x Stirring Wildwood 1x Rugged Prairie 1x Fire-Lit Thicket 3x Forest 2x Plains 2x Mountain Sideboard: 3x Leyline of Sanctity 3x Mirran Crusader 3x Great Sable Stag 1x Kitchen Finks 1x Path to Exile 1x Qasali Pridemage 1x Gaddock Teeg 1x Scattershot Archer 1x Baneslayer Angel I am gonna be making a few tweaks to my list for the Madison WI PTQ next weekend. Hopefully I dont lose in the first round of top 8 after taking my opponent down to 1 again :/
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