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zammm

Date Joined: Jul 3, 2003

Posts: 27,229

Quick feedback question: Regarding priority, I like the explanation I wrote up here better than what's currently in the FAQ. It'd need to be expanded and reworked to fit the FAQ's format, and the Stack and Priority entry as a whole would probably have to be overhauled entirely, but I do like it.

Is the new explanation as good as I think it is, or should I stick with the old one?

Level 2 Magic Judge

~

And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary

Hardtrack

Mogic Puzzle Master
Plays Well With Others

Date Joined: May 6, 2005

Posts: 2,570

Yeah, it's a whole lot better. The one you use now is a bit messy (and only last question actually explains something). You have to make the new one a bit more formal near the end when you actually explain the rules but the setup is infinitely better (and makes it much clearer why priority is important).

DCI Level 2 Judge

"That's what's so stupid about the whole magic thing, you know," Rincewind said. "You spend twenty years learning the spell that makes nude virgins appear in your bedroom, and then you're so poisoned by quicksilver fumes and half-blind from reading old grimoires that you can't remember what happens next."
- Terry Pratchett, The Colour Of Magic

zammm

Date Joined: Jul 3, 2003

Posts: 27,229

All right, so Innistrad's in all the RPRP and Keyword FAQs, Norn's Annex is in the Cards & Combos FAQ, the CR links have been updated, and the list of various types has been updated to add Curse and Werewolf. Next on the list is an entry for DFCs and reworked Stack and Priority entries.

Level 2 Magic Judge

~

And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary

BarlowEnter

Date Joined: Oct 14, 2011

Posts: 125

Question about Sengir Vampire's ability: (This card is in Daily MTG's, Card of The Day Archive)

Sengir Vampire – Magic 2012 uncommon. Here's a rules question from the early days of Magic. If you have a Sengir Vampire with first strike (the original question used Lance, but let's update that to Sharpened Pitchfork), how many Scryb Sprites would you have to block it with in order to kill it?

Twelve! The Sengir Vampire kills the first four with first strike, gets four +1/+1 counters, then the other eight 1/1 creatures kill it.

Is it because, only the toughness are the counters that added immediately at the phase? The initial 4 Strength from the attacking Sengir Vamprie is distributed to four of the Scrybs, Sengir Vampire becomes an 0/8 during the phase, and the rest of the Scrybs, all eight of them, blocks him and kills him? All eight of these Scrybs are unharmed because the 4 bonus strength from the Sengir Vampire would've only be added to his counters after that round?

And what if Sengir Vampire wasn't equipped with first strike? Would he be able to use the added counters immeidately after each kills?

zammm

Date Joined: Jul 3, 2003

Posts: 27,229

Okay, here we go; first draft of the double-faced card FAQ entry:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Double-Faced Cards
Back to the Table of Contents

Q: What are double-faced cards and how do they work?
A: Double-faced cards are a series of cards from Innistrad block that have no "back", just two faces, one on each side of the card. There are some special rules for playing with double-faced cards in your deck that we'll cover in just a second, but we'll just cover how the cards themselves work right now. A flip card works just like a normal card, except that when it meets certain conditions it will "transform" and change into whatever's on the other face.

A double-faced card looks like this; the first image is the 'front face' of the card, and the second is the 'back face':

Notice that the card's 'front face' has a sun symbol in the upper-left corner and uses the normal card frame coloring. The card's 'back face' has a moon symbol in the upper-left and uses an alternative frame coloring. You play the card as written on the 'front face' as though it were a normal card, which will tell you under what circumstances it will transform.

As far as the game is concerned, the card's 'back face' is only relevant while it's on the battlefield and has transformed to use that face. In all other circumstances, the 'back face' effectively doesn't exist.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: How do I play with a double-faced card in my deck?
A: There are two ways to play with double-faced cards in your deck. The first is to just use the card in your deck as you would any other card. However, you can only do this if you also use opaque card sleeves so that it's impossible to tell your cards apart from the back. (If you didn't do this, then it'd be obvious where the double-faced cards were in your deck, which would be bad.) When your double-faced card transforms, you can take it out of the sleeve and turn it around to show the other face.

The other way of playing with double-faced cards is to use a 'checklist card'. Checklist cards were distributed in most Innistrad block packs in place of basic lands. A checklist card has a normal Magic card back, but the front looks like this:

To use a checklist card, mark down on the checklist which double-faced card that checklist card represents, and then include the checklist card in your deck just like you would a normal card. Make sure to only mark one card off on the checklist, and use a pencil, pen, or marker that won't leave a mark through the card. Keep the actual double-faced card the checklist is supposed to be representing close by--you'll need it.

You'll use the checklist card any time the identity of your double-faced card needs to be kept concealed--say, in your hand or library, or while it's exiled face down. You'll switch out the checklist for the actual double-faced card it represents when it's in a public zone where everyone can see it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Can my opponent see what my double-faced card will look like once it transforms?
A: Yes. Any time a double-faced card is visible, the players who can see it can see both faces. Any player who can look at a checklist card in a hidden zone can look at the double-faced card it represents.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Does transforming a double-faced card cause auras, counters, or equipment to 'fall off' of it?
A: No, for the same reason that tapping doesn't--it's just changing the what the card looks like, not what it is. Simply changing what the card looks like will not remove anything from it. However, if the other face is something that those auras or equipment couldn't legally be attached to, they will fall off. For example, if you cast Coral Net

on Cloistered Youth

, and then the youth Transforms, the Strength will fall off and go to the graveyard, because it can only enchant green or white creature, and the transformed state of the Youth, Unholy Fiend

, is neither green nor white.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: If I'm searching my library for something, can I find the 'back face' of a double-faced card?
A: No. As far as the game is concerned, the 'back face' double-faced card does not exist unless the card is on the battlefield and has transformed to use that face. Everywhere else, the back face is treated as though it does not exist.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: I need to name a card. Can I name the 'back face' of a double-faced card?
A: Yes, you can name either face of a double-faced card. This could allow you to do things like prevent the damage from Gastaf Howler

with Runed Halo

.

However, remember that the 'back face' of the card only exists when the card is on the battlefield and is using that face. Anywhere else, it only has the characteristics of the front face, so you'd have to name the front face if you wanted to do something like find it with Spoils of the Vault

.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What does transforming a card that has already transformed do?
A: It transforms it back. Transforming can happen both ways; in fact, many double-faced cards have built-in abilities that let them transform from either side. Not every double-faced card will have a way to do this, but if you can find some other way, good for you!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Can a card that's not double-faced transform?
A: No. Only double-faced cards can transform.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What is the mana cost and converted mana cost of the back face of a double-faced card?
A: The back face of a double-faced card has no mana cost at all, so its converted mana cost will be 0.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What color is the back face of a double-faced card?
A: Since the back face of a double-faced card has no mana cost, it uses a color indicator to indicate its color. That's what the little round circle on the left side of the type line on Gastaf Howler

above is. The color of the color indicator determines the color of the card. (The color of the frame will reflect the color specified in the indicator, so you could also just look at that.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What happens if something turns a double-faced card face-down? Does it transform?
A: Nothing happens. The card does not transform, and it's not turned face-down. A double-faced card can't be turned face-down; anything that tries to turn a double-faced card face-down just fails to do anything to it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: I Clone a double-faced card. Which face do I get?
A: You get whichever face is currently in use. However, since your Clone

is not double-faced, it will not be able to transform--if it tries, nothing happens.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: My double-faced card somehow became a copy of something that's not double-faced, then transformed. What happens?
A: The card will transform, since it has two faces, but the copied values of its characteristics will still be overriding the printed characteristics, so it won't actually look any different until the copy effect wears off.

Transforming changes the "base state" that the card is starting from when you determine what it looks like, but it doesn't override any other effects that are applying to the card, and the copy effect is currently overwriting all the card's normal characteristics.

Back to the Table of Contents

Level 2 Magic Judge

~

And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary

jeff-heikkinen

****(ytic)

Date Joined: Aug 13, 2001

Posts: 8,349

Oct 22, 2011 -- 8:40PM, BarlowEnter wrote:
Question about Sengir Vampire's ability: (This card is in Daily MTG's, Card of The Day Archive)

Sengir Vampire – Magic 2012 uncommon. Here's a rules question from the early days of Magic. If you have a Sengir Vampire with first strike (the original question used Lance, but let's update that to Sharpened Pitchfork), how many Scryb Sprites would you have to block it with in order to kill it?

Twelve! The Sengir Vampire kills the first four with first strike, gets four +1/+1 counters, then the other eight 1/1 creatures kill it.

Is it because, only the toughness are the counters that added immediately at the phase? The initial 4 Strength from the attacking Sengir Vamprie is distributed to four of the Scrybs, Sengir Vampire becomes an 0/8 during the phase, and the rest of the Scrybs, all eight of them, blocks him and kills him? All eight of these Scrybs are unharmed because the 4 bonus strength from the Sengir Vampire would've only be added to his counters after that round?

And what if Sengir Vampire wasn't equipped with first strike? Would he be able to use the added counters immeidately after each kills?

From the first post in this thread (and also mentioned once on this page as well):

Please do not post questions of your own here!
You should only post in this thread if you want a question or topic to be added to the list. If you do, please post both question and answer, along with an explanation of why the given answer is the correct one.
Please make your own thread if you want to get a question answered.

Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011

rudolf

Date Joined: Sep 17, 2005

Posts: 16,209

Oct 22, 2011 -- 8:40PM, zammm wrote:
Okay, here we go; first draft of the double-faced card FAQ entry:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks good.

jeff-heikkinen

****(ytic)

Date Joined: Aug 13, 2001

Posts: 8,349

I noticed you call them "flip cards" near the beginning, obviously just a slip but one better removed before this entry goes live.

I'll update this post with anything else I think is worth pointing out.

Jeff Heikkinen
DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011

zammm

Date Joined: Jul 3, 2003

Posts: 27,229

Oct 23, 2011 -- 12:32PM, jeff-heikkinen wrote:
I noticed you call them "flip cards" near the beginning, obviously just a slip but one better removed before this entry goes live.

Yeah, I stole the formatting from the flip cards post, so that's where that comes from. It's been corrected in the master copy.

Level 2 Magic Judge

~

And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary

zammm

Date Joined: Jul 3, 2003

Posts: 27,229

Currently rewriting the Stack entry from scratch. I'm still working through how to explain everything, but the basic idea is the same as with the priority entry: explain why the concept is important and why it's useful to know this stuff before diving into the technical details.

Looking at the existing examples for that section, several of them deal with the difference between costs and effects while the actual entry doesn't cover it that well, so I'll definitely make sure to try to improve that, too.

Here's the first two questions I've written so far; this should be an improvement.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What is the stack?
A: Technically speaking, the stack is a game zone, like the battlefield or even your hand. It's the place where spells and abilities exist in between the time they are cast, activated, or triggered (whichever is appropriate) and the time they resolve and actually do whatever they're supposed to do.

Even if this is the first time you've ever heard of the stack, chances are you've taken advantage of it before--the existence of the stack is what allows players to respond to their opponent's spells and abilities. Any time you've used a counterspell

or used a spell or ability to protect your stuff

from an opponent's spells somehow, you've been using the stack.

The stack is often a difficult concept to learn for players who are encountering it for the first time, but don't worry; this FAQ should give you a good basic grounding in how it works. And if you still have questions, you're more than welcome to start a new thread to ask them. We're always happy to help players in need.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Why should I learn about the stack?
A: Because knowing how the stack works leaves you better equipped to do Really Cool Things, and allows you to figure out how to stop your opponent from using those same Really Cool Things against you. For many games, the casual "in response, I do this" terminology you probably already know works just fine, but being able to figure out what's happening when things get more complicated is a valuable skill.

The stack is like a computer or a smartphone--if you want to use it for nothing but the basics, that's fine, and a lot of people do that. But there's a lot more you can do with it if you care to take the time to understand how.

Level 2 Magic Judge

~

And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary

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