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3 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2010 - 1:49PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2008
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This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2010 - 9:44PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2004
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Apparently R&D's definition of a threshold mechanic is so broad as to be essentially meaningless. I maintain that the definition should apply only to mechanics with exactly two states. I'll buy that Kird Ape qualifies but all of the subsequent examples are things that shouldn't qualify. My definition would be that a threshold card should have a state that is an on/off switch defined by the board state - Halcyon Glaze ends itself at a predetermined time, so it is something other than threshold. Meanwhile Warlord, Maro and Priestess are all "counting" cards; they don't need to also be lumped in under threshold. A narrow definition is best in this case.
As usual I think Maro is vastly overstating the difficulty of tracking multiple levels of a threshold, and it irritates me to know that they straight-jacketed the design as much as they did, especially given how boring most of the metalcraft cards ended up being. Overall I have come to regard metalcraft as a bad mechanic; it pointlessly attaches a condition to things that you want to have happen, just so they can be costed more aggressively, reading to blowout games when you're successful in meeting the condition and miserable failures when you aren't. Dull, random, and bad.
"There is no reason to open up future design space we won't use" - tsk tsk, MaRo. Throwing away perfectly good design space forever, just to get the game to play a little better now? The design team for Magic 2079 will hate you for this.
Getting three artifacts out is absurdly easy if you build your deck right. As long as the metalcraft cards aren't things like Fog and Llanowar Elves that you must have in the early game, and as long as there isn't much of Shatterstorm going around, you should have no trouble at all meeting metalcraft four games out of five. Which only further reinforces the stupid borkenness of cards like Carapace Forger and Auriok Sunchaser. It's not that they might hit for 3-4 on turn 3, it's that they will virtually always be that large when you play both of them at once on turn 4 and then bash for 7.
Scars of Mirrodin is linear? Other than infect, I wouldn't have said so. Proliferate is vastly open-ended, equipment lets one creature play many roles, artifacts by their nature can go in any deck of any color, and metalcraft can use any artifacts. If it's the most linear set since Lorwyn (and I'm not sure that's true, Alara was pretty linear too with its shard themes), that's only because you've done a pretty good job of avoiding excess linearity in most of the recent sets. Zendikar's Allies and Vampires and Landfall were fairly narrow, but it felt to me like there was a fair bit of room left; ROE as well had some decent flexibility. So overall I think you just plain told an untruth here. Infect aside, SOM seems pretty modular.
Overall, a rather disappointing column.
And finally, next week we get some answers about that stupid test. Were its questions fuzzily-worded on purpose to weed out all but the designers that think exactly like MaRo, or was it just written poorly? I'm eager to know.
My New Phyrexia Writing CreditsMy M12 Writing CreditsAs far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
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3 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2010 - 10:15PM
#3
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As usual I think Maro is vastly overstating the difficulty of tracking multiple levels of a threshold, and it irritates me to know that they straight-jacketed the design as much as they did, especially given how boring most of the metalcraft cards ended up being. Overall I have come to regard metalcraft as a bad mechanic; it pointlessly attaches a condition to things that you want to have happen, just so they can be costed more aggressively, reading to blowout games when you're successful in meeting the condition and miserable failures when you aren't. Dull, random, and bad.
"There is no reason to open up future design space we won't use" - tsk tsk, MaRo. Throwing away perfectly good design space forever, just to get the game to play a little better now? The design team for Magic 2079 will hate you for this.
Maybe he is maybe he isn't, but I'd rather it be a little too simple than be too complex and have all my game's go to time if the board state gets complex and each player needs to keep recounting artifacts to make sure the various metalcrafters are active.
And what gain is there? terribly little, the difference between four and three artifacts isn't terribly much, and once you start going to five and six you start making cards that are just terrible in 90% of the games they appear in as sort of shattering will make sure they never activate fast enough to be above curve.
Besides if Magic 2079 really cares that much they can always go back and change it. Nothing is ever set in stone with magic. Keep things simple today and if tomorrow needs more variations they just rewrite the rule.
Scars of Mirrodin is linear? Other than infect, I wouldn't have said so. Proliferate is vastly open-ended, equipment lets one creature play many roles, artifacts by their nature can go in any deck of any color, and metalcraft can use any artifacts. If it's the most linear set since Lorwyn (and I'm not sure that's true, Alara was pretty linear too with its shard themes), that's only because you've done a pretty good job of avoiding excess linearity in most of the recent sets. Zendikar's Allies and Vampires and Landfall were fairly narrow, but it felt to me like there was a fair bit of room left; ROE as well had some decent flexibility. So overall I think you just plain told an untruth here. Infect aside, SOM seems pretty modular.
Not linear? Proliferate is linear! It says "play me with cards that have counters!". Just like how Goblin chieftain wants gobbos. If you don't have counter based cards than its pointless. Sure you don't need every card in your deck to be counter based but its proliferate definately encourages you to play with certain cards. And thats what makes it linear not necessarily that you need to play proliferate with other cards that have proliferate but simply that it encourages you to build a deck in a certain way. Metalcraft DEMANDS you play with artifacts, again like the Goblin chieftain. If a cards asks you to build a deck a certain way that its a linear mechanic. So yeah this block is very very linear. A truly modular mechanic is rebound from ROE. It makes no demands of the rest of the deck. Or clash... from Lorwyn.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2010 - 10:35PM
#4
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I thought this was a great column. "Surely," I thought, "this will demonstrate to the naysayers that they really did think hard about these types of decisions and the decisions they made were in fact correct for the overall health of the game." Apparently not.
I did think it got a little silly, how wildly threshold could vary. But you need a name for the mechanics that are similar to Threshold but aren't, and treating the whole thing as a sliding spectrum makes more sense than excluding things with only two states. (Although I can't think of any real examples of a card with more than two states)
I don't know that I'd consider Mirrodin all that linear compared to other recent sets. It's a bit more linear than Zendikar (artifacts = not as common as lands), but it's significantly less linear than Lorwyn, which was only a few years ago.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2010 - 10:57PM
#5
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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For one thing, MaRo and the gang are overthingking it. If (condition) result It's that simple.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2010 - 11:08PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2004
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And what gain is there? terribly little, the difference between four and three artifacts isn't terribly much, and once you start going to five and six you start making cards that are just terrible in 90% of the games they appear in as sort of shattering will make sure they never activate fast enough to be above curve.
Quick example of a card that they aren't making because of this rule:
Floating Fortress Artifact Creature - Wall, 3, 2/8 Flying, defender. Metalcraft 6 - As long as you control six or more artifacts, Floating Fortress gets +8/+2 and loses defender.
10 power is a very important number since it ends the game in two hits (or one if you give it infect). Therefore, simply powering this card down until it's balanced with Metalcraft 3 (which would utterly break it) makes it dramatically less viable than in its current state. This card offers a strong possibility of an instant win when you get five other artifacts out, making it possible for you to create a lot of tension by sitting with four out and leaving your opponent to wonder, do you have two Scale of Chiss-Goria in your hand? Does he need to Revoke Existence now, when it might leave him without a kill spell for one of your later guys? Obviously this example is a little out-there, but I'm sure that you'd find it possible to do a lot of design work at Metalcraft 6 that just plain doesn't work at 3.
Besides if Magic 2079 really cares that much they can always go back and change it. Nothing is ever set in stone with magic. Keep things simple today and if tomorrow needs more variations they just rewrite the rule.
Resulting in old cards that don't do what they say and are hard to use around new players because of that. This should be avoided whenever possible. Making it "Metalcraft 3" today, even if they never printed any other metalcraft numbers ever again, would have left the door open just in case, and at absolutely no cost to the present. The number does not make it any harder to figure out, because it's just repeating what's in the text. And replacing "three" with two instances of "3" (so they matched, and making comprehension for non-English natives easier as a side benefit) would not take any more space on the card.
It was ALL-upside. There is no excuse for their not doing it. None.
Not linear? Proliferate is linear! It says "play me with cards that have counters!".
That's "modular". There are lots of cards that use counters in lots of different ways, therefore proliferate has lots of potential uses. If Proliferate isn't modular, nothing is.
A truly modular mechanic is rebound from ROE. It makes no demands of the rest of the deck. Or clash... from Lorwyn.
Clash is linear because it demands that you engineer your deck to be as commonly able to win the clash as possible. You need lots of high-CMC cards to win clashes frequently; you need library manipulation to win them regularly. Not to mention the cards that triggered off clashing; those were insanely linear, on top of the linearity of needing to be able to rig the clash if it was to be winnable.
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WTH?
My New Phyrexia Writing CreditsMy M12 Writing CreditsAs far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
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3 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2010 - 11:19PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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Quick example of a card that they aren't making because of this rule:
Floating Fortress Artifact Creature - Wall, 3, 2/8 Flying, defender. Metalcraft 6 - As long as you control six or more artifacts, Floating Fortress gets +8/+2 and loses defender.
Watch this:
Floating Fortress Artifact Creature - Wall, 3, 2/8 Flying, defender. As long as you control six or more artifacts, Floating Fortress gets +8/+2 and loses defender.
..."jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden" /> WTH?
It's just a glitch in the WYSIWYG post editor. Nothing to worry about, unless it becomes far more common.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2010 - 11:45PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2004
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Quick example of a card that they aren't making because of this rule:
Floating Fortress Artifact Creature - Wall, 3, 2/8 Flying, defender. Metalcraft 6 - As long as you control six or more artifacts, Floating Fortress gets +8/+2 and loses defender.
Watch this:
Floating Fortress Artifact Creature - Wall, 3, 2/8 Flying, defender. As long as you control six or more artifacts, Floating Fortress gets +8/+2 and loses defender.
So, if they printed this alone (let alone others), why should players have to talk about "all the Metalcraft cards plus Flying Fortress" when they could just talk about "all the Metalcraft cards"? And if they wanted to exclude Flying Fortress, they could just say "all the Metalcraft 3 cards".
My New Phyrexia Writing CreditsMy M12 Writing CreditsAs far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
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3 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2010 - 11:50PM
#9
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Because there's plenty of ways to preserve the coolness of the idea without creating a multitude of cards that make metalcraft confusing: Floating Fortress -  Artifact Creature - Wall Flying, Defender Metalcraft - Floating Fortress gets +8/+2 if you control three or more artifacts Sacrifice three artifacts: Floating Fortress loses defender until end of turn. 2/8 I realize this isn't exactly the same card, but it accomplishes a lot of the same cool stuff, plus combos with Molder Beast and others.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2010 - 11:55PM
#10
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R&D never lets brain freeze-inducing sets out the door. (I'm sure there are those that would argue on this point.)
Really, what about Scourge ?
The end is always nigh.
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