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Switch to Forum Live View 10/01/2010 LD: "Twitstorm Part 2: Scars of Twitstorm"
3 years ago  ::  Sep 30, 2010 - 6:12PM #1
Garmichael
Date Joined: Jun 24, 2008
Posts: 1,572
This thread is for discussion of this week's Latest Developments, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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3 years ago  ::  Sep 30, 2010 - 11:28PM #2
subversiv
Date Joined: Feb 9, 2007
Posts: 36
Why not give everyone access to the effects, Design wondered, and use  the less sexy card draw as the reward for being on color? That's what  they tried, and it stuck.

I think you are the only person with a pro point in the history of Magic that feels card draw is less sexy. There is nothing more sexy then card draw.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2010 - 12:26AM #3
Spuuky
Date Joined: Apr 20, 2005
Posts: 130
You think simple cases of tension on permanents like Spellbombs are bad, because it's too difficult?

Wow.

...

Really? Did I actually read that right? Thanks for removing one more chance for me to think critically about my cards, and one more chance for me to outplay someone. Wouldn't want someone to have to actually make a choice in a game of choices.

I don't really complain much about Magic's changes, but that's just terrible.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2010 - 1:04AM #4
Chaos_Redefined
Date Joined: Oct 27, 2007
Posts: 277
I dunno...  In the days of mirrodin, killing a Disciple of the Vault was pretty sexy.  Now. we get to make it so that the disciple can't block...  Gimme back pyrite spellbomb...

And yeah.  I don't mind tension on non-creature cards.  I like being allowed to outplay my opponent as well.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2010 - 2:59AM #5
SternJudge
Date Joined: Feb 25, 2010
Posts: 158
"Design identified two issues with the old spellbombs. One was that you had to choose between drawing a card and using their effect, which is a source of tension in game play. Do I want a random card, or do I want to deal 2 damage to something? They're a little simpler to play with if you just get to do both. Developers like the hard parts of Magic to be attacking and blocking and casting spells, not making fiddly decisions about marginal effects on a permanent, so that appealed to us. The other issue is that the fun part of the card is the effect, which originally was locked away from you if you weren't playing the right color. Why not give everyone access to the effects, Design wondered, and use the less sexy card draw as the reward for being on color?"

So depressing! Seriously, this is why I am getting less and less enthusiastic about Magic all the time. I do understand the desire to make a more 'satisfying' experience for the player by giving them both outcomes, but as has already been pointed out, removing choices that give good players a chance to show an edge over a worse player is a terrible thing!

Ok, I also understand that you're not wanting to remove such situations, just limit them to 'attacking and blocking and casting spells', but we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I think that a player having to decide whether his Pyrite Spellbomb is more valuable as a source of card draw or 2 damage is interesting, challenging, skill-testing, a chance for a player to develop.

Wizards is always very sensitive to the charge that it is "dumbing down" Magic, but honestly look at what you have stated here; you've said that there was a challenging tension about the choices involved in the old spellbombs and we wanted to only have that challenge in other parts of the game so here we just let players do everything. That is, in terms, an admission that you are intentionally removing skill-testing aspects from certain parts of the game.

"Do I want a random card, or do I want to deal 2 damage to something? They're a little simpler to play with if you just get to do both." - Surely as clear an admission as there can be that the game is being deliberately simplified, and isn't that just a nicer way of saying dumbed down? Rhetorical question, as I have long since accepted that Wotc and I will just never agree on a lot of things!

[off topic, I just hopped over to Starcity to check the price in my sig was up to date, and found that Jace had increased from $74.99 to $89.99 since I last looked. Another reason I'm losing interest in the game.]
"Personally, I believe $50 is the roof that someone will pay for a Standard card, Mythic or otherwise." - Ben Bleiweiss, StarCity Games
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2010 - 4:03AM #6
GreenBuster
Date Joined: Oct 7, 2008
Posts: 864
I definitely agree with those above me.  Removing the choices from the spellbombs was a bad idea.  One of the things I liked about Magic in the past was the conflict of choices.  So what if whatever choice you make does not do too much on the battlefield, the need to think before you act was an enjoyable aspect of the game.

Now you have removed most of the choice conflicts from the game, leaving "do I attack/ not attack, block/not block and with what" and "do I play the spell now or later".  Tension was a good thing about this game and made it fun.  Now that tension is pretty much gone in my opinion, all for the sake of new players.

I taught myself how this game during 7th edition because no one was willing to teach me when I asked them how to play the game (they said it was too complex).  It took a while to work all the kinks out, but now I am pretty good at this game.  I am even teaching others how to play.  The only thing keeping me from high level tournaments is lack of money.  If I can learn this game on my own with a little assistance along the way during a period when small choice tensions were still in this game, other new players can as well.  I am not a genius and there are many people better than me at solving puzzles and have better creativity, yet I still play this game and enjoyed the tension.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2010 - 6:33AM #7
Dragon_Bloodthirsty
  • Warm, wet and squishy inside
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2003
Posts: 364

I really liked the old Spellbombs.  They're still one of my favorite cards from the set, because they A) have a useful effect and B) basically cycle if you happen to stumble on mana.  The new ones don't help you dig yourself out of trouble if you stumble on your mana.  They also play a lot like the Seals, where you can toss them down and have the effect waiting on the board (although not as good because you have to keep mana open).  I feel like the new Spellbombs ignored the depth that the old ones had in favor of giving players both effects.  I don't mind a new take that gives you both, but I don't want the fun and utility of the old ones to be lost on your team.  If you're mana screwed, these new bombs don't help you save yourself (i.e. they are "win more" cards).


The other thing about Spellbombs I liked was how they gave you more interesting options for creatureless decks.  Creatures are fun, but building a deck without creatures can also be fun, and I don't want that to be lost entirely from Magic.

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2010 - 6:37AM #8
HippySpec
Date Joined: Jan 5, 2010
Posts: 231
I used to think the "dumbing down" complaints were stupid. Now I see that they are very true.

I really do not see how mark rosewater can be considered a good designer. In this article it states that mark rosewater WILL not let a card that removes poisin counters see the light of day in this block. Isn't that a little bit premature to rule out the possibility that poisin will be so strong that you might need to print poisin removal? How can this not be a sign that Rosewater sucks at design?

Also...

Wasn't Rosewater on design during the Affinity Fiasco. Wasn't he the one that thought of affinity? Correct me if I am wrong.

can I do better than Rosewater? Anyone with common sense can.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2010 - 7:01AM #9
Vyolynce
Date Joined: Mar 8, 2005
Posts: 647
For the record, I only said Scars Sealed was "okay" because of the inherently swingy nature of 6-booster Sealed. The best pools can ridiculous, and the sub-par pools can be abhorrent; which one you get is dependent not only on which bombs you open (my midnight pool had 2 dual lands as rares -- or "blank" cards as far as Sealed is concerned) but on what cards, if any, you get in crazy multiples.

Not that I think 4-pack 30-card Sealed is a viable alternative, although to be fair I haven't actually tried it yet. I just miss Tournament Packs, even if I completely agree with the reasons behind discontinuing them.
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 01, 2010 - 7:13AM #10
Zadok001
Date Joined: Dec 3, 2007
Posts: 32
<--- Another voice in the chorus of "Tension is GOOD!"

I don't recall any new players being turned off by Spellbombs in their prior incarnation (or anyone, really - they were universally popular).  We can reprint an entire cycle of hilariously bad Myr, but we can't reprint an interesting, powerful, popular cycle of Spellbombs?  Huh?

Understanding on-board tricks and value is a part of skill.  Subtle decisions *should* matter, and should be possible to mess up.

I mean, how far does this go?

Cunning Sparkmage
2R
Creature
0/1
T: ~foo~ deals one damage to target creature or player.
At the end of your opponent's turn, if Cunning Sparkmage is untapped, Cunning Sparkmage deals one damage to that opponent.

There, that's a better design, right?
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