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Locked: [Archetype] Valakut Ramp
2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 9:13AM #1051
NipU
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2008
Posts: 39

Jun 28, 2011 -- 9:07AM, Nighthavk wrote:

Jun 28, 2011 -- 9:02AM, NipU wrote:


If you're not bringing in the Island over a land that gets access to G, then you're bringing it in over a Mountain.



No. Missed again. 



What lands are you running that aren't Mountains and don't give access to G?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 9:30AM #1052
navinavi90
Date Joined: Jun 27, 2011
Posts: 3
what do people think of running lotus cobra and overgrown battlement? 
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 10:08AM #1053
Nighthavk
Date Joined: Feb 17, 2011
Posts: 1,255

Jun 28, 2011 -- 9:13AM, NipU wrote:

Jun 28, 2011 -- 9:07AM, Nighthavk wrote:

Jun 28, 2011 -- 9:02AM, NipU wrote:


If you're not bringing in the Island over a land that gets access to G, then you're bringing it in over a Mountain.



No. Missed again. 



What lands are you running that aren't Mountains and don't give access to G?


I wouldn't bring an island over any land. I'd take out 'bad' stuff against control.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2011 - 11:02AM #1054
NipU
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2008
Posts: 39

Jun 28, 2011 -- 10:08AM, Nighthavk wrote:

Jun 28, 2011 -- 9:13AM, NipU wrote:

Jun 28, 2011 -- 9:07AM, Nighthavk wrote:

Jun 28, 2011 -- 9:02AM, NipU wrote:


If you're not bringing in the Island over a land that gets access to G, then you're bringing it in over a Mountain.



No. Missed again. 



What lands are you running that aren't Mountains and don't give access to G?


I wouldn't bring an island over any land. I'd take out 'bad' stuff against control.



Wait, you mean using a sideboard slot for a basic land? Yeah, I'm not going to bother testing that unless it has results.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2011 - 3:39AM #1055
Manjimaru
Date Joined: Apr 20, 2010
Posts: 1,831

Jun 28, 2011 -- 9:30AM, navinavi90 wrote:

what do people think of running lotus cobra and overgrown battlement? 




In my valakut (which I won a local small tournament with on tuesday) I run lotus cobras in the sideboard against mirror. Its like the only practical sideboard card in valakut mirror, lol. My meta is very aggro-centric, although it looks like Valakut is starting to get more popular now that it has won two of the last three post-ban tourneys over here. (the first was won by a anti-RDW monoB metagame deck). My games went:
1.round monoB obliterator -> practical bye, even though it was only 2-1 for me iirc by some miracle. Maybe lashwrithe+inkmoth nexus
2.round monoG eldrazi -> Im on the draw on both games, I win 2-0
3.round kuldotha red -> Im on the draw on both games, I win 2-0



Heres my valakut from that day:

Back in control

4 primeval titan
4 green sun's zenith
2 avenger of zendikar
1 wurmcoil engine
1 batterskull (tested whether its as good as wurmcoil, its not since germ dies to dismember. Will put wurmcoil back)

4 overgrown battlement
4 explore
4 growth spasm
3 khalni heart expedition
3 cultivate

2 beast within
2 pyroclasm

4 valakut, the pinnacle of GG
7 forest
12 mountain
3 terramorphic expanse

Im really happy about the ramp package and land count since this seems to 'roll' extremely well.

Sideboard will be refined but will include more pyroclasm and obstinate baloths. Baloths have proven to be great against non-infect aggros. Naturalize or similar artifact hate is needed. Possibly combust, and the lotus cobras for mirrors and the like (I swapped walls into cobras against the eldrazi)

Looks like LSV is starting to see the light, that twin isnt actually as good as you might think. Everytime I have seen people play it I have been underwhelmed. Many of its wins in my local tourneys have come from people playing around it and subsequently playing like crap. Valakut on the other hand is the epitome of reliability.

I think its best to start planning what to do with valakut against UB control.

"And the word my father taught me that evening, the word meaning 'the strongest', was mage."
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2011 - 12:31PM #1056
siregar
Date Joined: May 14, 2010
Posts: 1,258

Jul 7, 2011 -- 3:39AM, Manjimaru wrote:

Jun 28, 2011 -- 9:30AM, navinavi90 wrote:

what do people think of running lotus cobra and overgrown battlement? 




In my valakut (which I won a local small tournament with on tuesday) I run lotus cobras in the sideboard against mirror. Its like the only practical sideboard card in valakut mirror, lol. My meta is very aggro-centric, although it looks like Valakut is starting to get more popular now that it has won two of the last three post-ban tourneys over here. (the first was won by a anti-RDW monoB metagame deck). My games went:
1.round monoB obliterator -> practical bye, even though it was only 2-1 for me iirc by some miracle. Maybe lashwrithe+inkmoth nexus
2.round monoG eldrazi -> Im on the draw on both games, I win 2-0
3.round kuldotha red -> Im on the draw on both games, I win 2-0



Heres my valakut from that day:

Back in control

4 primeval titan
4 green sun's zenith
2 avenger of zendikar
1 wurmcoil engine
1 batterskull (tested whether its as good as wurmcoil, its not since germ dies to dismember. Will put wurmcoil back)

4 overgrown battlement
4 explore
4 growth spasm
3 khalni heart expedition
3 cultivate

2 beast within
2 pyroclasm

4 valakut, the pinnacle of GG
7 forest
12 mountain
3 terramorphic expanse

Im really happy about the ramp package and land count since this seems to 'roll' extremely well.

Sideboard will be refined but will include more pyroclasm and obstinate baloths. Baloths have proven to be great against non-infect aggros. Naturalize or similar artifact hate is needed. Possibly combust, and the lotus cobras for mirrors and the like (I swapped walls into cobras against the eldrazi)

Looks like LSV is starting to see the light, that twin isnt actually as good as you might think. Everytime I have seen people play it I have been underwhelmed. Many of its wins in my local tourneys have come from people playing around it and subsequently playing like crap. Valakut on the other hand is the epitome of reliability.

I think its best to start planning what to do with valakut against UB control.




U/B match up should not be a problem at all. Maybe a couple gaea's revenge and summoning trap/ricochet trap from the sideboard and you should be good. M12 brings us solemn simulacrum and rampant growth back which is a huge boost to our ramp ability.

The loss of JTMS is a huge blow to U/B against valakut now that they can't bounce our ramp nor fateseal us and win via jace.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2011 - 4:34PM #1057
MrIndigo
  • Mr. Indigo
Date Joined: Mar 27, 2003
Posts: 13,416
UB is still Valakut's worst matchup, Siregar. Gaea's Revenge/Thrun are of course big helps, but with counterspells, discard, and Memoricide the matchup is still in their favour.

EDIT: That said, it's one of Valakut's only poor matchups. It crushes almost everything else. That's why it's the Best Deck In The Format. 

Nov 4, 2010 -- 9:11AM, Niche wrote:

Nov 3, 2010 -- 10:05PM, Razorgore wrote:

It's really not even about giving niche cards to black.



It should be about giving black cards to Niche.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2011 - 7:33PM #1058
Mono789
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Speaking of U/B Control...I took Valakut to FNM last Friday (like I always do), went 3-0-1 in the main rounds, then got paired against what I think was the only U/B Control deck in the top 8.  Arglefargle...

On the other hand, I did get the opportunity to play against Exarch-Twin for the first time.  Man, that's scary.  I lost game 1 after I got greedy and zenith'd for a titan when I had my titan, while in reality I should have kept double bolt mana open.  Luckily, I made up for it by doing Act of Aggression for the win in game 2 and him being mana screwed for a couple of turns in game 3.

And boy am I looking forward to Rampant Growth being back.  I love the consistency that it provides...I don't miss the Khalni Heart Expedition / Harrow package at all.  Growth means I have 12 ramp cards to play on turn 2, which is sweet.
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2011 - 11:46PM #1059
MrIndigo
  • Mr. Indigo
Date Joined: Mar 27, 2003
Posts: 13,416

Jul 11, 2011 -- 7:33PM, Mono789 wrote:

Speaking of U/B Control...I took Valakut to FNM last Friday (like I always do), went 3-0-1 in the main rounds, then got paired against what I think was the only U/B Control deck in the top 8.  Arglefargle...

On the other hand, I did get the opportunity to play against Exarch-Twin for the first time.  Man, that's scary.  I lost game 1 after I got greedy and zenith'd for a titan when I had my titan, while in reality I should have kept double bolt mana open.  Luckily, I made up for it by doing Act of Aggression for the win in game 2 and him being mana screwed for a couple of turns in game 3.

And boy am I looking forward to Rampant Growth being back.  I love the consistency that it provides...I don't miss the Khalni Heart Expedition / Harrow package at all.  Growth means I have 12 ramp cards to play on turn 2, which is sweet.




Harrow is still really good, but I agree that Khalni Heart Expedition can go set itself on fire.

My accel package is: 4 Rampant Growth, 4 Explore, 4 Harrow, 4 Cultivate, but I might cut some Harrow and Cultivate for Solemn Simulacrum.

They key is that you want exactly 5 dead cards in your deck for the mid-lategame. And they're all Forests. 

Nov 4, 2010 -- 9:11AM, Niche wrote:

Nov 3, 2010 -- 10:05PM, Razorgore wrote:

It's really not even about giving niche cards to black.



It should be about giving black cards to Niche.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2011 - 4:50AM #1060
Manjimaru
Date Joined: Apr 20, 2010
Posts: 1,831

Jul 11, 2011 -- 11:46PM, MrIndigo wrote:


Harrow is still really good, but I agree that Khalni Heart Expedition can go set itself on fire.

My accel package is: 4 Rampant Growth, 4 Explore, 4 Harrow, 4 Cultivate, but I might cut some Harrow and Cultivate for Solemn Simulacrum.

They key is that you want exactly 5 dead cards in your deck for the mid-lategame. And they're all Forests. 


Growth spasm is still fastest ramp, growth spasm + 4 lands(one of which produces green) and nothing else = 4.turn titan. The only one of the cards (besides khalni heart) that actually provides 2 manaramp.

Harrow provides 2 landfalls but only one manaramp.

Cultivate provides one manaramp but two lands, 2 landfalls on separate turns.

Rampant growth makes the early game (turn 2-3) more reliable and prevents manascrew, but it doesnt actually make comboing that much stronger once you got valakuts active.

Marvin the sad robot doesnt really make the ramping much faster either, only one manaramp for 4cc, but provides good value against aggros which oracle of mul daya didn't do. But personally I feel that blockers are less important than providing ramp. Often you will find that explore does the same and earlier.

Khalni heart expedition is not actually that bad in providing valakut triggers when you combo off, but it sucks in the early game most of the time (thats why I played 3 not 4). Completely opposite to rampant growth. One of the wins I pulled last time I played valakut was because I played khalni heart. Play heart first, play mountain (activates 2 valakuts I had), zenith for titan, 4 triggers, khalni heart full, sac it for 4 more triggers = 24 damage in one turn.  Khalni heart can also provide landfalls at instant speed during opponents turn if you need it. Only harrow is the other one that can do that.

Overall, its not automatic that you replace the old ramp with the new, especially if you replace cards providing 2 landfalls with cards that provide one (rampant growth and simulacrum) you may find mid-game that you miscalculated.. Im not sure whats the best ramp package come M12 yet but I know its not completely trivial to figure it out.

Im pretty sure Im still playing full set of growth spasms though.

ps. One sideboard card Ive picked up from LSV and people at my place is tumble magnet , protects you against act of aggression and similar from red, maybe titan in the mirror (dunno if its a good idea or should we go all in with speed), and grave titan from UB. 

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