this statement alone, in and of itself, is enough reason to.... not want to listen to arguments made. what other planeswalker is better? what other planeswalker could even be regarded as better? elspeth might be the closest thing... but even then its not at the same level... so.... i guess most of us are lost on whatever logic you think you have on this matter.
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S1AL, if you don't mind, that is getting convuluted, so I'll forego the usual box thing and focus on your main arguments. Please forgive me if I miss a point and reprimand when necessary.
Firstly you make the claim that some other PW's are bad because they're seeing little play. I say that's a fine conclusion, but not one ignoring the fact that 99% of players, including you and I, are likely terrible at this game, and will often make piss poor choices when it comes to choosing decks.
Secondly your assert that I've made some poor assumptions on hypthetical gamestates, and at this I agree with you, namely because they are hypothetical gamestates. But to couter your counter, what good is a Jace that is always in your hand? Is the best planeswalker one that you're hesitant to play?
Then you return to the good in other formats thing. It's to this that I restate my previous position, that because this thread is filed under standard, I'm arguing as to whether it's really all that in standard.
this statement alone, in and of itself, is enough reason to.... not want to listen to arguments made. what other planeswalker is better? what other planeswalker could even be regarded as better? elspeth might be the closest thing... but even then its not at the same level... so.... i guess most of us are lost on whatever logic you think you have on this matter.
Yeah I should have defined my terms first. What I mean by best.
Firstly you make the claim that some other PW's are bad because they're seeing little play. I say that's a fine conclusion, but not one ignoring the fact that 99% of players, including you and I, are likely terrible at this game, and will often make piss poor choices when it comes to choosing decks.
Um, I actually said the opposite ("[Garruk]'s good, but he's not played much").
Secondly your assert that I've made some poor assumptions on hypthetical gamestates, and at this I agree with you, namely because they are hypothetical gamestates. But to couter your counter, what good is a Jace that is always in your hand? Is the best planeswalker one that you're hesitant to play?
Which PW are you NOT hesitant to play when you have no blockers? Elspeth is the only one that comes to mind for me, and then only sometimes.
Then you return to the good in other formats thing. It's to this that I restate my previous position, that because this thread is filed under standard, I'm arguing as to whether it's really all that in standard.
Well even if we're ONLY talking about Standard, which I don't remember being a qualifier in your original post, Jace is CA, protects himself, and can screw your opponent out of the game. He's the most versatile PW, he has a game-ending ULT, and he can be played in Aggro, Mid-range, or Control. He does not require you to build around him, he is equally at home in any strategy, and he's almost always good. Sure, you side him out against Mono-R a lot of the time, but that's a side case and the worst possible match-up for him.
The simple truth, though, is that Jace is played far more than any other 'Walker and in a wider variety of strategies than any but Elspeth, who is easily the second-best PW. What tips Jace, though, IS the fact that he is now ubiquitous in Eternal formats. In Standard, it's probably fair to say that the power-level difference between him and 'Speth is minor enough that they're effectively tied.
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Which PW are you NOT hesitant to play when you have no blockers? Elspeth is the only one that comes to mind for me, and then only sometimes.
Gary blocks as well as Elspeth does, and Ajani as a lightning helix beats jace as an unsummon.
even if we're ONLY talking about Standard, which I don't remember being a qualifier in your original post, Jace is CA, protects himself, and can screw your opponent out of the game. He's the most versatile PW, he has a game-ending ULT, and he can be played in Aggro, Mid-range, or Control. He does not require you to build around him, he is equally at home in any strategy, and he's almost always good. Sure, you side him out against Mono-R a lot of the time, but that's a side case and the worst possible match-up for him.
Assertions, huh? Jace is only CA on the second time you activate, can only protect himself on a nearly empty board when they don't have guys with haste, has an Ultimate that costs too much, can only be played in midrange and control. He does require you to build around him, needs a fairly controlling strategy, and never comes close to amazing.
The simple truth, though, is that Jace is played far more than any other 'Walker and in a wider variety of strategies than any but Elspeth, who is easily the second-best PW. What tips Jace, though, IS the fact that he is now ubiquitous in Eternal formats. In Standard, it's probably fair to say that the power-level difference between him and 'Speth is minor enough that they're effectively tied.
Tied for second place is not good enough to be barned.
Gary blocks as well as Elspeth does, and Ajani as a lightning helix beats jace as an unsummon.
Garruk then dies to Blightning, whereas Elspeth probably lives. Don't get me wrong, Garruk is a fine card, but he's not THAT good. He also doesn't beat Jace by himself. Lightning Helix is sometimes better. Unsummon seems a lot stronger when your opponent has a BSA or something similar on the board.
Assertions, huh? Jace is only CA on the second time you activate, can only protect himself on a nearly empty board when they don't have guys with haste, has an Ultimate that costs too much, can only be played in midrange and control. He does require you to build around him, needs a fairly controlling strategy, and never comes close to amazing.
OK, one at a time:
1) Jace is CA if all they use removal on him after he Storms. 2) His ultimate takes several turns to go off but pretty much reads "You win the game." For a card that's getting you value the whole time, that's pretty strong. To put it in perspective, Jace take 6 turns to go off. Ajani V takes 5. Elspeth takes 5. Jace's ult is just as powerful, if not more powerful, than theirs. Garruk takes 1 turn, yeah, but then he's pretty much just a delayed Overrun. 3) Um, MYTHIC. Jace is played heavily in that deck, and it's aggro-combo, not control or mid-range. He has seen play in 4-color aggro. Why? Because: "You're at 10, I drop Jace and Storm every turn while you have to choose between killing my dudes or screwing yourself off tempo to kill Jace, who is probably then going to be CA." Also, storming every turn is AMAZING. I've lost games to not being able to kill Jace the turn after he's dropped.
Tied for second place is not good enough to be barned.
No kidding. You clearly didn't read the thread if you're associating me with that position.
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Garruk then dies to Blightning, whereas Elspeth probably lives. Don't get me wrong, Garruk is a fine card, but he's not THAT good. He also doesn't beat Jace by himself. Lightning Helix is sometimes better. Unsummon seems a lot stronger when your opponent has a BSA or something similar on the board.
When they attack with BSA, you keep tapped down the BSA.
OK, one at a time: 1) Jace is CA if all they use removal on him after he Storms. 2) His ultimate takes several turns to go off but pretty much reads "You win the game." For a card that's getting you value the whole time, that's pretty strong. To put it in perspective, Jace take 6 turns to go off. Ajani V takes 5. Elspeth takes 5. Jace's ult is just as powerful, if not more powerful, than theirs. Garruk takes 1 turn, yeah, but then he's pretty much just a delayed Overrun. 3) Um, MYTHIC. Jace is played heavily in that deck, and it's aggro-combo, not control or mid-range. He has seen play in 4-color aggro. Why? Because: "You're at 10, I drop Jace and Storm every turn while you have to choose between killing my dudes or screwing yourself off tempo to kill Jace, who is probably then going to be CA." Also, storming every turn is AMAZING. I've lost games to not being able to kill Jace the turn after he's dropped.
1) Like piddly +1 CA, like worst case little Jace or Divination CA, like ****ed if I ever want to have that at four mana CA. 2) To put it in perspective, while AV and E are charging, they're also affecting the board state by locking down relevant permanents and making/boosting dudes. 3a)Well yeah. It's a zany aggro combo thing, not traditional aggro at all. If blue aggro could run Jace it would rather be running sleep. 3b)Also the thing about mythic is that when you have a gameplan of 'make a lot of mana and resolve a single exalted trigger' it doesn't make much sense that jace is present at all. Mythic is just so good I guess that It can win its games depite of Jace. 3c)It's sometimes amazing yeah, but then other times, not so much, and especially when they're placing some draw spells of thier own. Why I've been able to win some games after completely ignoring Jace for many activations.
Assertions, huh? Jace is only CA on the second time you activate, can only protect himself on a nearly empty board when they don't have guys with haste, has an Ultimate that costs too much, can only be played in midrange and control. He does require you to build around him, needs a fairly controlling strategy, and never comes close to amazing.
This says it ALL.
Sir, for the record please explain to the court how you understand card advantage working... Because THIS is at the heart of understanding why Jace is good.
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I feel like we've all been succesfully trolled -- Kudos to the troll, but this'll be my last time feeding it.
and if you're not a troll... try playing jace -- So far all your answers to him involve decks playing other cards at him -- It's like you're saying jace can be beat by any other deck -- and you're right, he can...
But he's just one card, you're making this out to be a Jace TMS vs the world type argument. -- Oh hey, Jace isn't good because he can die to a lightning bolt and a goblin guide after combusting whatever blocker was in the way. Of course this is assuming the deck playing said jace does *nothing* to protect it.
-- so to sum it up... ... go back to the bridge you crawled out from
