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Switch to Forum Live View 8/17/2010 LI: "Get Low"
3 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 5:33PM #1
Garmichael
Date Joined: Jun 24, 2008
Posts: 1,572
This thread is for discussion of this week's Limited Information, which goes live Tuesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 9:49PM #2
MaxFAn
Date Joined: May 4, 2009
Posts: 1,568
Funniest hand I ever kept:  RoE draft UB control with Keening Stone for a finisher.  I'm playing against a slow 3 color deck that I took about 35 minutes to grind out in game one.  My hand is Island , Island , Island , Swamp , Swamp , Swamp , See Beyond on the draw.  I know he can't kill me quickly, and my deck is REALLY mana hungry, so I keep it.  Turn one my opponent, “Inquisition of Kozilek you.” and got the See Beyond.  We didn't finish game two, but nothing I saw out of the other deck or player convinced me they were capable of beating me.
The end is always nigh.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2010 - 11:29PM #3
cricketHunter
Date Joined: Sep 15, 2009
Posts: 355
So here's a situation from a draft I just came back from. Game 3 against a bombtastic U/B deck (so far I've seen both Conundrum Sphinx and Frost Titan).

I draw Mountain, Mountain, Mountain, Mountain, Mountain, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt.

I mulliganed, and lost, thinking that I needed some pressure to win the game.  I'm very interested in hearing your advice.

Here's the complete decklist:

17xMountain

2xLightning Bolt
1xThunder Strike
1xFling
3xAct of Treason
1xShiv's Embrace
1xLava Axe

2xEmber Hauler
2xGoblin Piker
1xArc Runner
2xFiery Hellhound
1xChandra's Spitfire
1xCyclops Gladiator
1xChandra's Outrage
1xCanyon Minotaur
1xBeserkers of Blood Ridge
1xFire Servant
1xTriskelion

Thanks!

Edit: @Falcon_UK: I was on the draw in this game.
Help create custom set Aurora
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2010 - 1:50AM #4
Falcon_Uk
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 4,233

Firstly, interesting article.  What I hate is when you have a 50:50 hand and you chose to Mulligan and the new hand is even worse.

In relation to CricketHunter's hand, I would always Mulligan this.  You have no threats on the board and can only respond to two threats an opponent plays.  Also you normally don't want to Lightning bolt early creatures as you want to save them for real threats.

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2010 - 1:51AM #5
Jakusotsu
Date Joined: Aug 14, 2003
Posts: 380
Pretty nice trick there, Mr. Sadin: theme week is "hand", and you wrote "pretty" exactly seven times.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2010 - 4:28AM #6
atreides12
Date Joined: Oct 11, 2006
Posts: 13
Not sure if I understood the advantage for 18 lands over 17 lands.  Article says when you use 18, you'll remember when you get mana flooded and lose, but then went on to say if you use 17, you'll remember when you got manascrewed and lost. I don't see a case for one over the other.  I myself prefer 17.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2010 - 4:50AM #7
BURNINATOR
Date Joined: Oct 25, 2003
Posts: 35
Having played tons of M11 drafts and 5 sealed deck tournaments in MODO I've concluded that even with 17 lands I tend to flood much easier than get screwed. Why? Cause I mulligan the sub-optimal hands with 2 lands, 5 cards almost always - but I can't avoid the floods any way. So almost always I try to play with 17 lands and instead of the extra land trying to get something that either fixes the draw, cycles/cantrips for low amount of mana or is otherwise an early trn 1/2 drop.

So no, I don't think there is an advantage to use 18 lands, atleast not in M11.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2010 - 5:07AM #8
GreenBuster
Date Joined: Oct 7, 2008
Posts: 889
@cricketHunter

I would have actually kept the hand.  First off, because you have 5 lands in your hand the odds of you drawing a spell are larger.  While there is a chance of you drawing a land, it is not that great to start off with.  Also, you have a fair number of high cost spells and cards with a fire-breathing effect so having more mountains is good.  

Falcon_Uk is right that you don't have any creatures in your opening hand, and having to use the two Lightning Bolts early is not a desirable situation.  However, UB decks I have faced in the past have never put on too much early game pressure to even warrant using the bolts on the first two creatures that come out.  Nothing says that you HAVE to destroy the first two creatures that come out.  Taking some early damage is not going to kill you.  Hurt you, yes, but not kill you.  Yes, if you don't draw any creatures than you will eventually die or will need to use the bolts on the creatures that have been damaging you for the first few turns.  Also, you have additional burn in the deck.  Not as efficient as bolt but still there.

Personally I would keep the hand.  There might be a few times that I would mulligan but having the ability of answering some early pressure if you need to until you draw a creature makes the hand worth keeping.  You also have the necessary lands to play all but one of your spells.
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2010 - 5:29AM #9
Falcon_Uk
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 4,233

Aug 17, 2010 -- 5:07AM, GreenBuster wrote:

@cricketHunter

However, UB decks I have faced in the past have never put on too much early game pressure to even warrant using the bolts on the first two creatures that come out.




I find UB decks can be very aggro especially with the amount of evasion they play.  I have seen (and played) decks that go:

Turn 1 - Elite Vanguard
Turn 2 - Pegasus/Hawk/Owl
Turn 3 - Wild Griffin/Cloud Elemental
Turn 4 - Assualt Griffin/Azure Drake etc

You can be dead by turn 5 and there aren't many of those cards you want to spend a Lightning Bolt on.

Even without the opponent having a 'great' hand.  I think the 2 Lightning Bolt hand is too risky especially as you have a number of 'dead' cards in hand (Fling, Thunder Strike, Shiv's Embrace, 12 mountains) = 15 out of 33 cards (almost 50%).  You then have a further 8 cards that either can't block or can't be played until you turn 5 (3 Act of Treason, Lava Axe, Triskelion, Berserkers, Fire Servant, Arc Runner).  Accordingly, there are only 10 out of the 33 cards you want to draw early on meaning you have less than 1/3 of a chance of drawing them each turn.  Depending on whether you are on the play or the draw (you don't mention), this means you might not draw anything of 'use' until turn 4 by which point you may have lost too much momentum.

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 17, 2010 - 6:12AM #10
MadMageQc
Date Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 1,574

Aug 17, 2010 -- 5:29AM, Falcon_Uk wrote:

Aug 17, 2010 -- 5:07AM, GreenBuster wrote:

@cricketHunter

However, UB decks I have faced in the past have never put on too much early game pressure to even warrant using the bolts on the first two creatures that come out.




I find UB decks can be very aggro especially with the amount of evasion they play.  I have seen (and played) decks that go:

Turn 1 - Elite Vanguard
Turn 2 - Pegasus/Hawk/Owl
Turn 3 - Wild Griffin/Cloud Elemental
Turn 4 - Assualt Griffin/Azure Drake etc


Uh, dude, UB means Blue and Black. Not Blue and White. That's UW.

Black is somewhat less agressive than White in M11, although it can be in some games with Child of Night and Barony Vampire . That said, you other points are good.


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