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3 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2010 - 11:46PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Mar 13, 2004
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Right but doesnt Volrath have to be on the field in order to become a copy of the top card of your graveyard? So it cannot come into play as Myojin, therefore it cannot be played from the hand as myojin, not gaining the counter.
It's enter the battlefeild... not comes into play. It's been over a year since the change.
You seem to have some trouble with the rules here. The Myojin doens't need to be a Myojin when you cast it to have the divinity counter. If you Clone the Myojin, the clone will enter the battlefiled with a divnity counter even though it wasn't a Myojin when it was cast. Myojin really asks "was this card cast from the hand?" not "Was this card named Myogin of Inifinte rage and was it cast from the hand?"
Thie question is whether the Shapeshifted would enter the battlefeild with a divinity counter.
On one hand the copying ability only works when it's on the battlefeild so the "enter the battlefeild" ability wouldn't exist yet.
On the other hand, the rules imply that a card can "look forwards" to see what it will be like on the battlefeild.
We don't know the answerer yet, because there isn't one.
… and then, the squirrels came.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2010 - 11:47PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Feb 28, 2005
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Right but doesnt Volrath have to be on the field in order to become a copy of the top card of your graveyard?
Indeed; like most abilities of permanents, Volrath's Shapeshifter  's text-"copying" ability only works while the Shapeshifter is on the battlefield. However, look at rule 614.12, which Yarium posted. That rule states that when determining what CIP replacements are applicable, you look at how the object coming into play will "look" (what characteristics it will have) once on the battlefield - including by applying the object's own static abilities. By a strict reading of this rule, you check how the Shapeshifter will "look" once on the battlefield, and once on the battlefield, it'll look like a Myojin.
There's some very subtle stuff going on here, which is why Natedogg is consulting with others before giving his [O] ruling.
So it cannot come into play as Myojin
Actually, it most certainly can. There is no time that the Shapeshifter is on the battlefield that its ability is not active; from the moment it enters the battlefield, it's a Myojin. For example, Garruk's Packleader  will "see" a large creature, rather than an 0/1 Shapeshifter, enter the battlefield (and thus will trigger).
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3 years ago ::
Aug 12, 2010 - 11:54PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2010
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Right but doesnt Volrath have to be on the field in order to become a copy of the top card of your graveyard? So it cannot come into play as Myojin, therefore it cannot be played from the hand as myojin, not gaining the counter.
It's enter the battlefeild... not comes into play. It's been over a year since the change.
You seem to have some trouble with the rules here. The Myojin doens't need to be a Myojin when you cast it to have the divinity counter. If you Clone the Myojin, the clone will enter the battlefiled with a divnity counter even though it wasn't a Myojin when it was cast. Myojin really asks "was this card cast from the hand?" not "Was this card named Myogin of Inifinte rage and was it cast from the hand?"
Thie question is whether the Shapeshifted would enter the battlefeild with a divinity counter.
On one hand the copying ability only works when it's on the battlefeild so the "enter the battlefeild" ability wouldn't exist yet.
On the other hand, the rules imply that a card can "look forwards" to see what it will be like on the battlefeild.
We don't know the answerer yet, because there isn't one.
The main difference between between Clone  and Volrath's Shapeshifter is Clone Enters the Battlefield AS the card. Volrath's ability activates after being on the battlefield. by the same logic, if you played Volrath's on Turn 3 and on turn 9 Myojin hits the grave due to being milled or whatever and lands ontop Volrath should get the counter. Even if say 5 other creature were 'on top' of your graveyard before then.
You know after reviewing all the rules I have seen, I am going to wait until AFTER Natedogg posts his reply to make any more claims or arguments, There is some deeper stuff going on, like the poster above me said, and Really after rereading the cards question my stance on this.
I Agree with Indigo  ^^ WIP atm, if you can name the song its from, I will love you forever. That is me
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3 years ago ::
Aug 13, 2010 - 12:02AM
#34
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@Crandor, although your correct that it's Tatterkite's ability that makes what persist tries to impossible and thus it's ignored. The only way that can work is if Tatterkite's ability is taken into account when determining how persist's replacement effect applies, as Tatterkite's ability only functions on the battlefield.
As for the old thread, it stated that the rules changes for Changelings to work as one would intuit resulted in Vorath's Shapeshifter+Myojin of Cleansing Fire (and other Myojins) to work differently than in the past, the story about Gavin Duggan mention that he was playing a deck using this relation in a tournament (or was going to?) but the head judge disagreed on the interpretation (which is incorrect?).
I'm glad Natedogg is consulting with his peers @wizards on this one, imo 614.12 is one of the hardest rules to parse in all the CR (and theirs not much imo that can be done about this). So its easy to read it incorrectly, and thus make an incorrect ruling. Looking forward to the [O] answer, but from my understanding of how 614.12 is intended to be parsed, it should work and I suspect this is specifically due to the Lorwyn change to this rule.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 13, 2010 - 6:25AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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The way I feel it should work is that the Changeling gets the counter, because the Sage of Fables effect exists, and in checking if it applies to the Changeling or not, you see what the changeling would look like after it enters the battlefield.
For Volrath's shapeshifter, however, the effect does not exist until after it enters the battlefield. So even though it will gain that ability right after it enters, it has yet to enter, and thus, is not affected by the replacement effect.
Changling isn't really a relevant example - 702.70a tells us that Changelings are all creature types at all times, even if they're sitting a binder 2,500 miles from the game you're playing.
Here's a better example (or at least a more interesting one). You cast Volrath with Dryad Arbor  on top of your graveyard. Does Landfall  trigger? (I think yes.)
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3 years ago ::
Aug 13, 2010 - 6:32AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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Here's a better example (or at least a more interesting one). You cast Volrath with Dryad Arbor on top of your graveyard. Does Landfall trigger? (I think yes.)
Yes, it triggers, but triggered abilities are a different beast than replacement effects.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 13, 2010 - 6:35AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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Here's a better example (or at least a more interesting one). You cast Volrath with Dryad Arbor on top of your graveyard. Does Landfall trigger? (I think yes.)
Yes, it triggers, but triggered abilities are a different beast than replacement effects.
For it to to trigger, though, it would Volrath would need to ETB as a Land. Not ETB as a creature, then let its static ability turn it into a land.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 13, 2010 - 6:46AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2003
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For it to to trigger, though, it would Volrath would need to ETB as a Land. Not ETB as a creature, then let its static ability turn it into a land.
Yes: as of the first moment it is on the battlefield, it is a land. That is highly relevant for triggered abilities, and not necessarily relevant for enters the battlefield replacement effects.
An enters-the-battlefield triggered ability checks immediately after the creature is on the battlefield and examines what the creature currently looks like. An enters-the-battlefield replacement effect checks during the process of entering the battlefield, and predicts the future using only the things listed in 614.12. Its prediction will not necessarily be exactly the same as what a triggered ability will see due to the last few words of 614.12.
614.12
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614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.
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3 years ago ::
Aug 13, 2010 - 6:56AM
#39
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2007
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Looking at those last few words, I am, myself, now confuseled. It says Orb of Dreams  won't enter the battlefield tapped - but that seems to directly contradict the rule that says to count the card's own static abilities. It says to ignore abilities from other sources, whatever that means. How can the Orb of Dreams' ability not be a continuous effect generated by its own static ability? How on earth could it NOT enter the battlefield tapped? WAIT I see it! Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it).
So, since Orb of Dreams' ability affects a subset of permanents that includes it, it doesn't take that ability into consideration for when its entering the battlefield.
Now, Volrath's Shapeshifter has a continuous effect that is generated from a static ability that only affects itself. It does NOT affect a general subset of permanents that it itself is a part of. As such, it WILL see itself entering the battlefield as a Myojin ahead of time. Myojin doesn't say that "cards named Myojin enter the battlefield with a divinity counter", it just says that it itself enters with a divinity counter. Therefore, once again, it's not a subset - it's just itself. It will enter with a divinity counter.
 You are Red/Blue! Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator. 1000 posts w00t! Jun 17 - 2010 Me as a Planeswalker: Spoiler:
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Yarium, Planeswalker   
Planeswalker - Yarium
+1: Each player reveals his or her hand until your next turn.
+3: Each player draws 3 cards.
-9: You receive an emblem that says, "At the beginning of each upkeep, search your library, graveyard, hand, and cards in exile for a card. You may play that card without paying its mana cost."
Loyalty: 2 I am a Rules Advisor as of This Date: Aug 13/2010 Reminder text will tell somebody "(You are stupid. Have less fun.)" -WotC_dlaugel
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3 years ago ::
Aug 13, 2010 - 3:49PM
#40
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The way I feel it should work is that the Changeling gets the counter, because the Sage of Fables effect exists, and in checking if it applies to the Changeling or not, you see what the changeling would look like after it enters the battlefield.
For Volrath's shapeshifter, however, the effect does not exist until after it enters the battlefield. So even though it will gain that ability right after it enters, it has yet to enter, and thus, is not affected by the replacement effect.
Changling isn't really a relevant example - 702.70a tells us that Changelings are all creature types at all times, even if they're sitting a binder 2,500 miles from the game you're playing.
Here's a better example (or at least a more interesting one). You cast Volrath with Dryad Arbor on top of your graveyard. Does Landfall trigger? (I think yes.)
But again, when applying replacement effects, it doesn't matter what the rules for Changeling say, what matters is what does the ETB replacement effect 'see,' and that is defined by 614.12. Without the clause "continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities" it wouldn't be seen as having all creature types when applying replacement effects. So Bramblewood Paragon  wouldn't give out +1/+1 counters to Changelings, since its a replacement effect that's causing them to ETB with an additional +1/+1 counter on them.
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