TurboErasure is a reboot of an old archetype that has made various appearances in the standard meta. The deck wins through drawing lots of cards, fogging attacks, and milling the opponent so that he/she runs out of library before you do.
This is an updated version of turbofog and you play it in a very similar fashion. The difference is the addition of Jace's erasure , however you want to get the draw engines down first and use these to accelerate through the remainder of the deck. The erasures can come in mid game and just burn through the opponent's library at an incredible pace.
TurboErasure is a reboot of an old archetype that has made various appearances in the standard meta. The deck wins through drawing lots of cards, fogging attacks, and milling the opponent so that he/she runs out of library before you do.Dark Ascensio
Looks pretty decent. Maybe Captured Sunlight for the MB, dunno.
As for sideboard, you definitely need to get Celestial Purge in there, and Flashfreeze will help a little as well. Purge gets rid of your newest enemy- Leyline of Punishment.
Looks pretty decent. Maybe Captured Sunlight for the MB, dunno.As for sideboard, you definitely need to get Celestial Purge in there, and Flashfreeze will help a little as well. Purge gets rid of your newest enemy- Leyline of Punishment.
Looks pretty decent. Maybe Captured Sunlight for the MB, dunno.
As for sideboard, you definitely need to get Celestial Purge in there, and Flashfreeze will help a little as well. Purge gets rid of your newest enemy- Leyline of Punishment.
very good point about the purge - will certainly make that change, although I was thinking of using oblivion ring instead.
very good point about the purge - will certainly make that change, although I was thinking of using [c]oblivion ring[/c] instead.
Looks pretty decent. Maybe Captured Sunlight for the MB, dunno.
As for sideboard, you definitely need to get Celestial Purge in there, and Flashfreeze will help a little as well. Purge gets rid of your newest enemy- Leyline of Punishment.
very good point about the purge - will certainly make that change, although I was thinking of using oblivion ring instead.
Where o-ring can hit planeswalkers and a wider range of things in general, Purge is an instant and costs less, which means you can drop it as early as possible. There aren't many options that o-ring will hit that purge doesn't (that really need removing, mind you) other than the white Leyline.
very good point about the purge - will certainly make that change, although I was thinking of using [c]oblivion ring[/c] instead.[/quote]Where o-ring can hit planeswalkers and a wider range of things in general, Purge is an instant and costs less, wh
Love any deck that includes at least some card that no one is playing. The suprise factor alone makes up for any supposed "shortcomings" of the card. I would only make the suggestion of trying to fit in a 4 set of Day of Judgement. With a couple of Zones out and then drop DoJ you will have board control for the rest of the match, at least until the deal with a Zone or two. That is a neat trick with the Leyline but what do you sideboard them in aginst that you wouldn't want them mainboard for? Also the relic will not counter the Eldrazi gods once they hit the graveyard, as their reshuffle is a static effect and cannot be responded to.
Love any deck that includes at least some card that no one is playing. The suprise factor alone makes up for any supposed "shortcomings" of the card. I would only make the suggestion of trying to fit in a 4 set of Day of Judgement. With a couple o
Also the relic will not counter the Eldrazi gods once they hit the graveyard, as their reshuffle is a static effect and cannot be responded to.
This isn't correct actually. Eldrazi hits the Graveyard, begins to trip his effect. You can then hit the Relic and exile it. I just saw this question come up in the rules forum the other day.
This isn't correct actually. Eldrazi hits the Graveyard, begins to trip his effect. You can then hit the Relic and exile it. I just saw this question come up in the rules forum the other day.
You can exile what is in the graveyard but you cannot exile the Eldrazi itself. So what happens is, in response to the discarding, you activate the Relic, exile the graveyard then the Eldrazi goes to the graveyard and gets reshuffled. (I think.....)
You can exile what is in the graveyard but you cannot exile the Eldrazi itself. So what happens is, in response to the discarding, you activate the Relic, exile the graveyard then the Eldrazi goes to the graveyard and gets reshuffled. (I think.....
You can exile what is in the graveyard but you cannot exile the Eldrazi itself. So what happens is, in response to the discarding, you activate the Relic, exile the graveyard then the Eldrazi goes to the graveyard and gets reshuffled.
I apologize, but this isn't correct. The Graveyard is a zone, just like the battlefield or your hand. There isn't a "limbo area" that the Eldrazi occupies prior to hitting the graveyard. They are moved there, and then there effect happens. The Eldrazi occupies the zone, his effect begins to be resolved, and then he can be removed prior to the effect happening.
I apologize, but this isn't correct. The Graveyard is a zone, just like the battlefield or your hand. There isn't a "limbo area" that the Eldrazi occupies prior to hitting the graveyard. They are moved there, and then there effect happens. Th
I stand corrected. Side note: If there is an instanct speed reanimator effect then you could reanimate one of the Legendary Eldrazi, correct?
Sure, although I don't know of any instant re-animator is Standard at the moment. But yeah, as long as the spell/effect can target the graveyard at instant speed, you're golden.
Sure, although I don't know of any instant re-animator is Standard at the moment. But yeah, as long as the spell/effect can target the graveyard at instant speed, you're golden.
Thanks for the input. Jman - I think you're right that purge > o-ring in this environment.
I'll also drop the awakening zone for DoJ (three and one in the sideboard).
Thanks for the input. Jman - I think you're right that purge > o-ring in this environment.I'll also drop the awakening zone for DoJ (three and one in the sideboard).
Thanks for the input. Jman - I think you're right that purge > o-ring in this environment. I'll also drop the awakening zone for DoJ (three and one in the sideboard).
Dropping Awakening Zone makes your SB polymorph strategy weaker, because it doesn't allow you to have easy access to tokens.
Also, I kinda question the use of Luminarch Ascension. It always underperformed when I played with it.
Dropping Awakening Zone makes your SB polymorph strategy weaker, because it doesn't allow you to have easy access to tokens.Also, I kinda question the use of Luminarch Ascension. It always underperformed when I played with it.
Thanks for the input. Jman - I think you're right that purge > o-ring in this environment. I'll also drop the awakening zone for DoJ (three and one in the sideboard).
Dropping Awakening Zone makes your SB polymorph strategy weaker, because it doesn't allow you to have easy access to tokens.
Also, I kinda question the use of Luminarch Ascension. It always underperformed when I played with it.
Having playtested the new build a little I'm putting the A-zones back. I find that i rarely need the DoJ once this gets going, because I can fog the creatures. The a-zone keeps me from having to fog for just one creature, and its extra mana can be helpful.
So I'm thinking DoJ instead of ascension.
Dropping Awakening Zone makes your SB polymorph strategy weaker, because it doesn't allow you to have easy access to tokens.Also, I kinda question the use of Luminarch Ascension. It always underperformed when I played with it. [/quote]Having playt
You could include a Mind Spring to trigger jace's erasure.
This actually sounds like it could be a good way to finish, but I'm not too sure its needed.
Maybe Archive Trap, SB? I've always been a fan of turn one mill 13, and it'll be nasty against decks with lots of search effects (Primeval Titan)
Oh, and I still say find a spot for Flashfreeze if you can. Kinda hard though.
This actually sounds like it could be a good way to finish, but I'm not too sure its needed.Maybe Archive Trap, SB? I've always been a fan of turn one mill 13, and it'll be nasty against decks with lots of search effects (Primeval Titan)Oh, and I sti
Actually, it doesn't look like it's needed but, it might be something to consider.
Preordain might be a good cantrip to find what you need. (I'm a huge fan of this card)
These are just things to consider really. I'm no expert deckbuilder lol. But I'll throw out ideas all the same.
Actually, it doesn't look like it's needed but, it might be something to consider.[c]Preordain[/c] might be a good cantrip to find what you need. (I'm a huge fan of this card)These are just things to consider really. I'm no expert deckbuilder lol. Bu
Actually, it doesn't look like it's needed but, it might be something to consider.
Preordain might be a good cantrip to find what you need. (I'm a huge fan of this card)
These are just things to consider really. I'm no expert deckbuilder lol. But I'll throw out ideas all the same.
Preordain is a really nice card, but the issue here is that this deck relies on not getting hit by creatures, and there's already lots of card draw already.
And every expert deckbuilder starts out by throwing ideas around.
Preordain is a really nice card, but the issue here is that this deck relies on not getting hit by creatures, and there's already lots of card draw already.And every expert deckbuilder starts out by throwing ideas around.
Mill Deck + Way to give them their library back = not mill deck
Although that does make me think that Elixir of Immoratilty could make a SB slot, depending on the local meta.
Mill Deck + Way to give them their library back = not mill deck ;) Although that does make me think that Elixir of Immoratilty could make a SB slot, depending on the local meta.
better with jace2...sadly, not a lot of decks arent
Disagree. There are a lot of decks that are worse with Jace 2.0, like this one. Jace Beleren actually puts cards into the graveyard, and you can use the Erasure while you are getting to Ultimate.
Disagree. There are a lot of decks that are worse with Jace 2.0, like this one. Jace Beleren actually puts cards into the graveyard, and you can use the Erasure while you are getting to Ultimate.
better with jace2...sadly, not a lot of decks arent
Disagree. There are a lot of decks that are worse with Jace 2.0, like this one. Jace Beleren actually puts cards into the graveyard, and you can use the Erasure while you are getting to Ultimate.
i can't see how a draw engine that controls card quality for you and your opponent, that bounces, that threatens to win if not dealt with, and that synergizes with the deck's stradegy is bad, i really can't.
as for the jace 1 argument, just use them both.
Disagree. There are a lot of decks that are worse with Jace 2.0, like this one. Jace Beleren actually puts cards into the graveyard, and you can use the Erasure while you are getting to Ultimate.[/quote]i can't see how a draw engine that controls car
better with jace2...sadly, not a lot of decks arent
Disagree. There are a lot of decks that are worse with Jace 2.0, like this one. Jace Beleren actually puts cards into the graveyard, and you can use the Erasure while you are getting to Ultimate.
i can't see how a draw engine that controls card quality for you and your opponent, that bounces, that threatens to win if not dealt with, and that synergizes with the deck's stradegy is bad, i really can't.
as for the jace 1 argument, just use them both.
Because you aren't actually thinking on how turbo-fog decks work. Controlling card quality of a single card for your opponent when they are getting 3+ cards a turn isn't really all that nice. The only ability that would be used would be the brainstorm, because it works with erasure. And Jace Beleren threatens to win better than 2.0 does, because it activates faster. You cannot just look at any deck and say "oh look, lets add mindsculptor, its better now" because it just doesn't work. Look at some of the decks that got top 8s in their nationals, some don't run 2.0 because he simply doesn't work in the decks design. This is another one of those decks.
Disagree. There are a lot of decks that are worse with Jace 2.0, like this one. Jace Beleren actually puts cards into the graveyard, and you can use the Erasure while you are getting to Ultimate.[/quote]i can't see how a draw engine that controls car
Because you aren't actually thinking on how turbo-fog decks work. Controlling card quality of a single card for your opponent when they are getting 3+ cards a turn isn't really all that nice. The only ability that would be used would be the brainstorm, because it works with erasure. And Jace Beleren threatens to win better than 2.0 does, because it activates faster. You cannot just look at any deck and say "oh look, lets add mindsculptor, its better now" because it just doesn't work. Look at some of the decks that got top 8s in their nationals, some don't run 2.0 because he simply doesn't work in the decks design. This is another one of those decks.
you argument is basically that jace 1 is better than jace 2 in this deck. no one is disputing that, but there's really no reason not to use jace 2 here.
you argument is basically that jace 1 is better than jace 2 in this deck. no one is disputing that, but there's really no reason not to use jace 2 here.
Because you aren't actually thinking on how turbo-fog decks work. Controlling card quality of a single card for your opponent when they are getting 3+ cards a turn isn't really all that nice. The only ability that would be used would be the brainstorm, because it works with erasure. And Jace Beleren threatens to win better than 2.0 does, because it activates faster. You cannot just look at any deck and say "oh look, lets add mindsculptor, its better now" because it just doesn't work. Look at some of the decks that got top 8s in their nationals, some don't run 2.0 because he simply doesn't work in the decks design. This is another one of those decks.
you argument is basically that jace 1 is better than jace 2 in this deck. no one is disputing that, but there's really no reason not to use jace 2 here.
Sure there is- it dilutes the cards that you do draw, because you want jace 1 FAR more than you want Jace 2, and it doesn't keep you alive or directly lead to your win-con.
EDIT: And my main argument is that there ARE decks where you cannot simply say "Jace 2.0 makes this better," and there are a decent number of them.
you argument is basically that jace 1 is better than jace 2 in this deck. no one is disputing that, but there's really no reason not to use jace 2 here.[/quote]Sure there is- it dilutes the cards that you do draw, because you want jace 1 FAR more tha
Sure there is- it dilutes the cards that you do draw, because you want jace 1 FAR more than you want Jace 2, and it doesn't keep you alive or directly lead to your win-con.
EDIT: And my main argument is that there ARE decks where you cannot simply say "Jace 2.0 makes this better," and there are a decent number of them.
1. it doesn't, because jace 2 draws you into your desire draws.
2. if it's not dealt with, you win, so it will get dealt with. so, there's no problem with multiple jace 1 or 2 in hand.
3. it dealts with opponent jace2.
4. it does keeps you alive, by bouncing and by drawing into fogs. in fact, jace 1 is the one that doesn't do much on that aspect by itself.
5. it is a wincon
sure, there are decks like those, but this is not one of them.
1. it doesn't, because jace 2 draws you into your desire draws.2. if it's not dealt with, you win, so it will get dealt with. so, there's no problem with multiple jace 1 or 2 in hand.3. it dealts with opponent jace2.4. it does keeps you alive, by bou
1. it doesn't, because jace 2 draws you into your desire draws.
2. if it's not dealt with, you win, so it will get dealt with. so, there's no problem with multiple jace 1 or 2 in hand.
3. it dealts with opponent jace2.
4. it does keeps you alive, by bouncing and by drawing into fogs. in fact, jace 1 is the one that doesn't do much on that aspect by itself.
5. it is a wincon
sure, there are decks like those, but this is not one of them.
So, lets see.... Jace 1 Does the same things as Jace 2 On counts 1, 2, 3, and 5, and part of 4. And seeing as 2 and 5 are the same thing, that means that the two jaces do the same thing in 3.5 out of 4 situations, and Jace Beleren does it at ONE MANA CHEAP, and TWO TURNS FASTER. I say this again, you should not need the bounce effect on Jace 2.0, because you should be drawing into fogs with Howling Mine and Temple Bell. This deck has 12 effective fog effects, and another possible 4 if really needed. That is one in 5 cards (20%) of the deck, and gives you (I believe) around a 85% chance of having at least one in your opening hand, and (assuming one in opener) that leaves 11 of the 53 remaining cards are fog effects. The deck is designed to draw multiple cards a turn, so you should be able to get multiple fogs as needed, and not need Jace 2.0 to make sure of it. On top of that, all he does is dig you an extra 2 cards down on the current turn, because you should be having at least 3 howling mine effects out total, and his fateseal will be mostly useless, because leaving a card on top doesn't hurt when you draw 3+ cards a turn, and putting it on bottom only helps if it is either a 1-of or will kill you that turn.
So, lets see.... Jace 1 Does the same things as Jace 2 On counts 1, 2, 3, and 5, and part of 4. And seeing as 2 and 5 are the same thing, that means that the two jaces do the same thing in 3.5 out of 4 situations, and Jace Beleren does it at ONE MANA
you are still comparing jace 1 and 2, as i said before, play both
edit: i would like to see you actively argue against jace 2 in the deck. instead of just saying that one valid inclusion in the deck is better than another valid inclusion in the deck
you are still comparing jace 1 and 2, as i said before, play bothedit: i would like to see you actively argue against jace 2 in the deck. instead of just saying that one valid inclusion in the deck is better than another valid inclusion in the deck
Sure there is- it dilutes the cards that you do draw, because you want jace 1 FAR more than you want Jace 2, and it doesn't keep you alive or directly lead to your win-con.
Sure, I'm quoting for laziness, and the truth is that Jace 2.0 can lead to your win-con, but jace 1.0 does it better and faster at a lower cost. I've pointed out a million reasons why Jace 1.0 is better than Jace 2.0 in this deck, and now I'm going to point out that having both in this deck is counter-productive, because you don't want to draw 2.0 over 1.0, and you don't want 2.0 over a fog, and since you want 1.0 over 2.0, you would be better off with a howling mine over 2.0. So that leaves you removing either a land or your control elements. O-Ring and countermagic are good things to have in this deck, important for threats you can't fog away.
And the fact is, that refining a deck (since we already have a proven concept of idea) is nothing other than saying one valid inclusion is better than another valid inclusion, and that is the stage this deck is at. We have the skeleton (original white-green-blue, then white-blue, now this again) of the deck, and we are only modifying a small number of cards to make the deck as optimal as possible.
Adding Jace 2.0 doesn't optimize the deck in any way other than the brainstorm, which doesn't get it closer to ultimate, nets an addition mill card over 1.0's +2, which gets it closer to its ultimate.
So there you go, a reason not to run both.
Sure, I'm quoting for laziness, and the truth is that Jace 2.0 can lead to your win-con, but jace 1.0 does it better and faster at a lower cost. I've pointed out a million reasons why Jace 1.0 is better than Jace 2.0 in this deck, and now I'm going t
The Mind Sculptor would work well in this deck. With a large number of Fog effects, you can essentially reach his ultimate while an opponent continuously tries to kill him. However, as for the deck as a whole, Beleren would do better here. Cheaper, faster, and tends to get hit less until your opponent realizes what you're doing.
Putting the Mind Sculptor in the deck is like putting an extra machine gun to a tank. It may help, but it isn't necessary.
The Mind Sculptor would work well in this deck. With a large number of Fog effects, you can essentially reach his ultimate while an opponent continuously tries to kill him. However, as for the deck as a whole, Beleren would do better here. Cheaper, f
The Mind Sculptor would work well in this deck. With a large number of Fog effects, you can essentially reach his ultimate while an opponent continuously tries to kill him. However, as for the deck as a whole, Beleren would do better here. Cheaper, faster, and tends to get hit less until your opponent realizes what you're doing.
Putting the Mind Sculptor in the deck is like putting an extra machine gun to a tank. It may help, but it isn't necessary.
OK, fine, lets say, for the sake of argument, that its worth putting 2.0 in here. What do you take out that won't hurt the deck more than 2.0 can help.
OK, fine, lets say, for the sake of argument, that its worth putting 2.0 in here. What do you take out that won't hurt the deck more than 2.0 can help.
The intention was to build a deck that optimized around not having Jace 2.0. Even so I found myself trying a singleton Jace 2.0 and not reaching a conclusion either way. The trouble is that the deck uses Jace 1.0 bilaterally, whereas most use it unilaterally, so I'm not using it up. It stays on the board. If I'm lucky, it goes ultimate.
That said, Jace 2.0 is a useful toobox and "draw three cards" with erasure is pretty brutal.
Jury's out. If I leave it out its only because Jace 1.0 was also supposed to frustrate Jace 2.0 users.
Gawd, I just dunno.
The intention was to build a deck that optimized around not having Jace 2.0. Even so I found myself trying a singleton Jace 2.0 and not reaching a conclusion either way. The trouble is that the deck uses Jace 1.0 bilaterally, whereas most use it unil
It would be interesting to see some Runed Servitor . I was just thinking about the possiblity of adding Voltaic Key for the Temple Bell and I realized that it might be fun to include some artifact creatures like Steel Overseer or Triskelion , although that pushes you away from Fog. just thinking out loud here.
I've always thought [c]Haunting Echoes[/c] was necessary in mill decks. Black also gives the option of [c]Rise from the Grave[/c]. I love the birds tech, btw.And the argument against [c]Time Reversal[/c] isn't quite holding up. The deck plays [
It would be interesting to see some Runed Servitor . I was just thinking about the possiblity of adding Voltaic Key for the Temple Bell and I realized that it might be fun to include some artifact creatures like Steel Overseer or Triskelion , although that pushes you away from Fog. just thinking out loud here.
These are all options, but I think the Black Blue version you hint at is a different strategy to the Turbo Fog option I've adopted. The erasure is an enhancement to the turbofog strategy, effectively doubling, tripling or even quadrupling the rate of depletion with each erasure on the field (ie. if you have three "howling mine" effects on the board, just one erasure gives you an extra three cards depleted per turn.
These are all options, but I think the Black Blue version you hint at is a different strategy to the Turbo Fog option I've adopted. The erasure is an enhancement to the turbofog strategy, effectively doubling, tripling or even quadrupling the rate
I've always thought Haunting Echoes was necessary in mill decks. Black also gives the option of Rise from the Grave . I love the birds tech, btw.
Think if you go black, you wind up with a deck that has to be more aggressive in its milling. White offers better control options.
Rise from the Grave on the other hand doesn't support what you are trying to do. Doubtful you'll get something that helps you to mill faster from your opponent's graveyard. And if the goal is to get a good creature for 5 mana to help keep you alive, well, why rely on your opponent having one when you could just play a baneslayer or a sphinx that helps the card draw? Or, if you did want to rely on what your opponent has, why not a blue card to steal one of their creatures on the board, thereby weakening their board position while strengthening your own?
No. 5 mana sorcery. Usually better off with Archive Trap . Same cost if you cast it, but an instant, so you can play it at the end of your opponent's turn. Has the added benefit of playing for 0 mana if your opponent searches their library, so can often be played early, thanks to fetch lands and such. And causes your opponent to think twice before searching, so less deck thinning and your Path to Exile has no downside. And once your opponent is under 26 cards, it'll mill more cards as well.
Think if you go black, you wind up with a deck that has to be more aggressive in its milling. White offers better control options. Rise from the Grave on the other hand doesn't support what you are trying to do. Doubtful you'll get something th
The intention was to build a deck that optimized around not having Jace 2.0. Even so I found myself trying a singleton Jace 2.0 and not reaching a conclusion either way. The trouble is that the deck uses Jace 1.0 bilaterally, whereas most use it unilaterally, so I'm not using it up. It stays on the board. If I'm lucky, it goes ultimate.
That said, Jace 2.0 is a useful toobox and "draw three cards" with erasure is pretty brutal.
Jury's out. If I leave it out its only because Jace 1.0 was also supposed to frustrate Jace 2.0 users.
Gawd, I just dunno.
Dunno what you're talking about, my Jace has almost always gone ultimate when I play turbo-fog. Might be part of the whole "they can't hit through fog" thing.
Agree with Axterix, and would love to find a home for two copies of Archive Trap in this deck.
Best option would be to replace a Negate and a O-Ring- 6 counters ought to get the job done. And I've been thinking, you might want to consider replacing Mana Leak for Safe Passage. Dunno how badly you need the leak TBH.
Dunno what you're talking about, my Jace has almost always gone ultimate when I play turbo-fog. Might be part of the whole "they can't hit through fog" thing. Best option would be to replace a Negate and a O-Ring- 6 counters ought to get the job don
The intention was to build a deck that optimized around not having Jace 2.0. Even so I found myself trying a singleton Jace 2.0 and not reaching a conclusion either way. The trouble is that the deck uses Jace 1.0 bilaterally, whereas most use it unilaterally, so I'm not using it up. It stays on the board. If I'm lucky, it goes ultimate.
That said, Jace 2.0 is a useful toobox and "draw three cards" with erasure is pretty brutal.
Jury's out. If I leave it out its only because Jace 1.0 was also supposed to frustrate Jace 2.0 users.
Gawd, I just dunno.
Dunno what you're talking about, my Jace has almost always gone ultimate when I play turbo-fog. Might be part of the whole "they can't hit through fog" thing.
Agree with Axterix, and would love to find a home for two copies of Archive Trap in this deck.
Best option would be to replace a Negate and a O-Ring- 6 counters ought to get the job done. And I've been thinking, you might want to consider replacing Mana Leak for Safe Passage. Dunno how badly you need the leak TBH.
I suppose I found that my Jaces were being used to kill a lot of Jace 2.0 before they went ultimate, or I milled the library before I needed to get there.
Mana leak always seemed to be useful because of the mana curve... drop something on turn 2 if not hold mana leak, drop something on turn 3, on turn four i want to play an erasure and hold back mana leak, turn five drop jace and hold mana leak... and so on.
safe passage is a funny one. it doesn't allow me to protect jace, which stinks.
for now though i'm going to keep trying with the current build and see what comes of it. That is, Jace 1.0 all the way!
Dunno what you're talking about, my Jace has almost always gone ultimate when I play turbo-fog. Might be part of the whole "they can't hit through fog" thing. Best option would be to replace a Negate and a O-Ring- 6 counters ought to get the job don
I suppose I found that my Jaces were being used to kill a lot of Jace 2.0 before they went ultimate, or I milled the library before I needed to get there. Mana leak always seemed to be useful because of the mana curve... drop something on turn 2 if not hold mana leak, drop something on turn 3, on turn four i want to play an erasure and hold back mana leak, turn five drop jace and hold mana leak... and so on. safe passage is a funny one. it doesn't allow me to protect jace, which stinks. for now though i'm going to keep trying with the current build and see what comes of it. That is, Jace 1.0 all the way!
Well, an issue here is that you drop Jace on turn 5, when if you drop it turn 3 it makes them hold onto theirs for at least a turn. And good point on Safe Passage.
Well, an issue here is that you drop Jace on turn 5, when if you drop it turn 3 it makes them hold onto theirs for at least a turn. And good point on Safe Passage.
I wanted to point out that even though Archive Trap can be essentially played for its 'zero' cost and effectively hit your opponent for a hard 13 cards, while playing U/B Ally Mill I have found it has actually held me back more than helped me. Essentially, I have found more and more that as much as waiting until they activate a search land seems like a good, even a great idea (because let's face it, there isn't a whole lot of cards these days which players use to search for cards (excluding the Titan, of course) as much as they use lands), I have only managed to catch a player with Archive Trap a single handful of times out of upwards of 40-50 games. And that's with running 4 of them. Maybe I've just shuffled badly or just had sucky timing, but I don't really like Archive Trap for this type of deck.
In fact, after trying out a deck like this myself, I have found Mind Spring absolutely vital. With even a couple of Erasures out, Mind Spring triples its play value. You not only refill your hand (which is really all TurboFog needs to win the game) drastically, but you also mill your opponent. Yes, you'll probably tap yourself out playing it, but doing both of the things you desperately want your deck to do (draw and mill) is pushing the boundaries of power for this card.
Okay, so I gush a little bit. I just wonder if the card should be reconsidered. Late game is what TurboFog is all about, and Mind Spring is a late game card. Probably would win you the game whenever you play it, while Archive Trap most likely wouldn't.
I wanted to point out that even though [c]Archive Trap[/c] can be essentially played for its 'zero' cost and effectively hit your opponent for a hard 13 cards, while playing U/B Ally Mill I have found it has actually held me back more than helped me.
I wanted to point out that even though Archive Trap can be essentially played for its 'zero' cost and effectively hit your opponent for a hard 13 cards, while playing U/B Ally Mill I have found it has actually held me back more than helped me. Essentially, I have found more and more that as much as waiting until they activate a search land seems like a good, even a great idea (because let's face it, there isn't a whole lot of cards these days which players use to search for cards (excluding the Titan, of course) as much as they use lands), I have only managed to catch a player with Archive Trap a single handful of times out of upwards of 40-50 games. And that's with running 4 of them. Maybe I've just shuffled badly or just had sucky timing, but I don't really like Archive Trap for this type of deck.
In fact, after trying out a deck like this myself, I have found Mind Spring absolutely vital. With even a couple of Erasures out, Mind Spring triples its play value. You not only refill your hand (which is really all TurboFog needs to win the game) drastically, but you also mill your opponent. Yes, you'll probably tap yourself out playing it, but doing both of the things you desperately want your deck to do (draw and mill) is pushing the boundaries of power for this card.
Okay, so I gush a little bit. I just wonder if the card should be reconsidered. Late game is what TurboFog is all about, and Mind Spring is a late game card. Probably would win you the game whenever you play it, while Archive Trap most likely wouldn't.
Turbo Fog and UB Ally Mill are different decks. Also, you shouldn't focus so much on the free part of the Trap, but the 5 mana instant that mills for 13, which is amazing for turbo fog. And it doesn't matter how many times you get the trap cost, but how many times the card puts the player 13 cards fewer into their deck. And you don't WANT to run 4 Archive Trap, because thats too many. Two is the maximum I ever play. And there are plenty of cards that players use to search libraries- Primeval Titan (like you said) the five fetch lands (which are in almost every deck), Cultivate, and others. As for Mind Spring, "Yes, you'll probably tap yourself out playing it..." Stop. You NEVER tap out with this deck on any turn after 4. EVER. And it is still a win-more card, when what we already have does what we need it to plenty well. You are just as likely to win with Mind Spring as you are Archive Trap, which isn't likely. Mind spring will mill for MAYBE 5, and then they kill you because you can't fog. Archive Trap you can use EOT if you don't need to fog, as early as turn 5. Also, the card draw from Mind Spring is really pointless when you have Howling Mines, Temple Bells, and Jace out.
Turbo Fog and UB Ally Mill are different decks. Also, you shouldn't focus so much on the free part of the Trap, but the 5 mana instant that mills for 13, which is amazing for turbo fog. And it doesn't matter how many times you get the trap cost, but
So last week I brought this deck along to the British Nationals and although I didn't enter the competition (was enjoying the £5 drafts too much) I did play some people in the morning wanting to test their decks.
i played jund, fauna naya, a titan ramp varaint and an interestingly painful bloodghast-reassembling skeleton deck (arguably the nemesis to this deck), and didn't lose a game.
here's the run down...
- a last minute singleton recurring insight was exactly the kind of card that this deck needs as a finisher. the one time I played it was with two erasures in play - 14 cards milled on the first resolution and my opponent scooped.
- the titan deck didn't run valakut. i need an answer to that. otherwise that deck is toast and helps me mill only good stuff.
- awakening zone works well. those lil chump blockers really come in handy.
- managed to mana leak a realm razer but that card really worries me.
- negate proved more useful than mana leak
So last week I brought this deck along to the British Nationals and although I didn't enter the competition (was enjoying the £5 drafts too much) I did play some people in the morning wanting to test their decks.i played jund, fauna naya, a titan ra
You have no way of dealing with Leyline of Sanctity . Your mill cards no worky if they start with one in play. Wait, I take that back. You can side into Polymorph and Emrakul and hope they sac it if you can manage to attack.
You have no way of dealing with [c]Leyline of Sanctity[/c]. Your mill cards no worky if they start with one in play. Wait, I take that back. You can side into Polymorph and Emrakul and hope they sac it if you can manage to attack.
You have no way of dealing with Leyline of Sanctity . Your mill cards no worky if they start with one in play. Wait, I take that back. You can side into Polymorph and Emrakul and hope they sac it if you can manage to attack.
Have put a solitary nature's claim in the sideboard... maybe that'll work.
Plus I could always counter it before comes down, unless it comes down turn 0.
otherwise Emrakul gives me the ability to win by attrition (as a graveyard shuffler) and just keep the draw going.
Have put a solitary [c]nature's claim[/c] in the sideboard... maybe that'll work.Plus I could always counter it before comes down, unless it comes down turn 0.otherwise Emrakul gives me the ability to win by attrition (as a graveyard shuffler) and ju
Updated post rotation - would welcome comments.Turbo Erasure (Post Scars version)Draw / Mill (12)4 x [c]Jace's Erasure[/c]4 x [c]Temple Bell[/c]3 x [c]Jace Beleren[/c]1 x [c]Recurring Insight[/c]Fog / Chump Blockers (16)1 x [c]Blunt the Assault[/c]2
bonus life + shuffling your GY to library could make it ideal for deck like this, with huge draw and limited number of fog -like cards.
Just my 2 cents
Did you consider [c]elixir of immortality[/c]? (I haven't read pages 2-4)bonus life + shuffling your GY to library could make it ideal for deck like this, with huge draw and limited number of [c]fog[/c]-like cards.Just my 2 cents
Have you considered the draw engine in [c]prototype portal[/c] + [c]temple bell[/c] + [c]voltaic key[/c]? Maybe throw in a little [c]runed servitor[/c]?
Basically, I have done away with the tokens as chumps, which has meant that the transformative mass polymorph sideboard is also out. That worked well enough last year, but thanks to Caw-Blade, an aerial assault is much more likely and renders chump-fogging less effective.
Consecrated Sphinx may turn out to be the all-star new entry. Once on the battlefield, it will refill your hand with ease, and with Erasure in play, mill your opponent at an alarming rate. It is so powerful a draw spell that I am even trying out Venser’s journal as a way of buying back into the game. Dropping one Sphinx with a Jace and a TempleBell in play nets you +8 cards by the opponent’s next upkeep.
I have now updated this to take into account MBS.Basically, I have done away with the tokens as chumps, which has meant that the transformative [c]mass polymorph[/c] sideboard is also out. That worked well enough last year, but thanks to Caw-Blade, a
As from MBS, this deck moved away from chump-token blocking to embrace its draw-mill-fog core.
Still can't decide between soul parry and tanglesap , but I'm running the former for now.
Mana Leak is out for now, allowing Archive Trap comes into the main deck and go up to four preordain . surgical extraction goes into the sideboard with two more copies of the trap, which I am hoping will make this deck robust against certain archetypes.
I have now updated this to take into account NPH.As from MBS, this deck moved away from chump-token blocking to embrace its draw-mill-fog core.Still can't decide between [c]soul parry[/c] and [c]tanglesap[/c], but I'm running the former for now.[c]Ma
Getting the last out of this deck before the summer rotation of M11, I have added two cards from M12 - Rites of Flourishing and Oblivion Ring .
The notable shift in this deck is away from tackling caw-blade and towards tackling RDW. The sideboard is basically an anti-red suite. Also, I no longer need mini-jace to tackle Jace 2.0, and consecrated sphinx likewise reduced in importance (although I still run one copy because it is amazing). Archive trap comes up from a singleton to 3 copies.
@catowner - it was and probably still is a slow deck. usually I would win around the midgame. I would take a bit of a beating until turn 4, and then hold the board.
Getting the last out of this deck before the summer rotation of M11, I have added two cards from M12 - [c]Rites of Flourishing[/c] and [c]Oblivion Ring[/c].The notable shift in this deck is away from tackling caw-blade and towards tackling RDW. The s
You want the Archivist. So badly. Repeatable CA. Repeatable mill with Erasure out. And making them draw 3-6 cards a few times is going to speed up this deck by a ton.
Oh, and he has legs.
You want the Archivist. So badly. Repeatable CA. Repeatable mill with Erasure out. And making them draw 3-6 cards a few times is going to speed up this deck by a ton.Oh, and he has legs.
You want the Archivist. So badly. Repeatable CA. Repeatable mill with Erasure out. And making them draw 3-6 cards a few times is going to speed up this deck by a ton.
Oh, and he has legs.
Good call - can't believe I missed that.
I'd go as far as to say >> sphinx.
Good call - can't believe I missed that.I'd go as far as to say >> sphinx.
Lots of stuff in Dark Ascension makes me think this deck is worth looking at.Rough and ready starting point based on previous builds:Dark Ascension TurboErasureDraw / Mill (16)4 x Jace's Erasure 4 x Rites of Flo
It's tricky. I have found that this deck needs 1 or 2 cards max that enhance the milling, beyond the turbodraw and the erasures do that for you already. Jace 3.0 seems to be the best value, because the spells you have that protect you also protect Jace, and you get 20 cards out of him over two turns for as opposed to, say, 5 + 12 = 17. I also have jace's archivists.
The main question I have right now is whether to include any of my sideboard options in the Main Deck.
@ ButeoI think if there was no Snapcaster Mage then Praetor's Counsel would merit consideration.@ Vampyre JaceIt's tricky. I have found that this deck needs 1 or 2 cards max that
I am by no means a skilled deck builder but if you'd like my opinion, here goes:
I'd say go for Oblivion Ring maindeck. You NEED protection against infect decks. That's the biggest problem I see with this deck. If I understood the infect mechanic correctly fog effects do not protect against poison counters. Altough I haven't seen that many infect decks it sees regular play none the less. Especially MBI has the ability to kill you in one turn with Lashwrithe benefiting hugely from your Rites of Flourishing . Inkmoth Nexus on the other hand sees quite a lot of play in many different decks and, imho, you need to have a consistent reliable answer to that in your deck. I'd say go for 4 x Ghost Quarter .
Also why 2 Inkmoth in your deck? Any opponent will be more than happy to spend his otherwise useless removal to take them out.
I'd also give Witchbane Orb some thought for SB. Essentially against RDW as they might still be able to burn you to death. Against Token Decks I'd also think about siding in further copies of Day of judgment .
I am by no means a skilled deck builder but if you'd like my opinion, here goes:I'd say go for Oblivion Ring maindeck. You NEED protection against infect decks. That's the biggest problem I see with this deck. If
I am by no means a skilled deck builder but if you'd like my opinion, here goes:
I'd say go for Oblivion Ring maindeck. You NEED protection against infect decks. That's the biggest problem I see with this deck. If I understood the infect mechanic correctly fog effects do not protect against poison counters. Altough I haven't seen that many infect decks it sees regular play none the less. Especially MBI has the ability to kill you in one turn with Lashwrithe benefiting hugely from your Rites of Flourishing . Inkmoth Nexus on the other hand sees quite a lot of play in many different decks and, imho, you need to have a consistent reliable answer to that in your deck. I'd say go for 4 x Ghost Quarter .
Also why 2 Inkmoth in your deck? Any opponent will be more than happy to spend his otherwise useless removal to take them out.
I'd also give Witchbane Orb some thought for SB. Essentially against RDW as they might still be able to burn you to death. Against Token Decks I'd also think about siding in further copies of Day of judgment .
Fog protects against infect creatures in the same way, but of course the life gain this deck has becomes useless against it. The inkmoth nexus are in as protection against inkmoth nexus, and other 1 toughness creatures (effectively forcing the opponent to commit more to the board).
I like the idea of the orb SB, as direct damage is a problem, and day of judgment as a reset.
Fog protects against infect creatures in the same way, but of course the life gain this deck has becomes useless against it. The inkmoth nexus are in as protection against inkmoth nexus, and other 1 toughness creatures (effectively forcing the oppone
So, I saw this, then looked at the second post... and realized it was me >.> I hadn't touched Turbo-Fog again until recently, but I'm not sure you want to run Archangel's Light. It's very, very mana intensive. I'm also against running Archivist and Consecrated - having legs in a deck with so few relevant legs is a very bad thing - you make removal relevant. Stick them in the Sideboard, and add them in Game 2. Also, remember that Stonehorn Dignitary can actually be counted as a fog effect. I'm also a fan of Increasing Confusion, AND Blue Sun's Zenith.
Oh, and its called Elixir of IMMorality :P
And I haven't seen Infect in weeks- not since UW started taking off again. Accept that you will likely lose to Infect 0-2, and move on. Otherwise, you will be ruining the chances you have to win against other decks.
Here's what I drew up in class this morning with zero testing- similar to yours, I figure that it'll help with brainstorming:
4 Jace's Erasure 4 Rites of Flourishing 2 Increasing Confusion 1 Blue Sun's Zenith 2 Jace, Memory Adept
4 Fog 2 Blunt the Assault 4 Moonmist 2 Clinging Mists
3 Snapcaster Mage 4 Visions of Beyond 2 Elixir of Immortality 2 Gideon Jura 1 DoJ
3 Glacial Fortress 3 Sunpetal Grove 4 Hinterland Harbor 3 Ghost Quarter (for that pesky Moorland Haunt, AND it helps mill) 1 Nephalia Drownyard (this was just an idea, I'll probably cut it after testing) 1 Woodland Cemetery 1 Swamp 2 Forest 1 Plains 2 Island 3 Evolving Wilds (So happy the reprinted this)
Sideboard: 2 Blunt the Assault 2 Clinging Mists 3 Timely Reinforcements (Stomps Mono-Red if it becomes a Deck again) 2 Day of Judgment 6 Other Sideboard Cards
I'm honestly expecting this deck to trounce any ramp decks that pop up (Wolf-Run), and control should be a decent matchup. I've also been thinking playing a green/black deck that runs 4 Curse of Death's Hold. But probably not.
So, I saw this, then looked at the second post... and realized it was me >.>I hadn't touched Turbo-Fog again until recently, but I'm not sure you want to run Archangel's Light. It's very, very mana intensive. I'm also against running Archivist and Co
I don't see how DOJ is a card anymore. It's not effective against the current metagame and the main deck to rotate in with DKA is tokens. Ratchet Bomb should get the nod everytime.
I don't see how DOJ is a card anymore. It's not effective against the current metagame and the main deck to rotate in with DKA is tokens. Ratchet Bomb should get the nod everytime.
I don't see how DOJ is a card anymore. It's not effective against the current metagame and the main deck to rotate in with DKA is tokens. Ratchet Bomb should get the nod everytime.
You're probably right, but at the same time I'm expecting Vampires and Werewolves to actually start becoming decks soon (or at least red-green sligh beats, and DoJ still holds some relevance against Tokens (though I agree its not the best sweeper). But like I said, a list I drew up in class, and the DoJ's will be the first thing I cut if I'm wrong about the evolving meta. Rachet Bomb definitely going to be a few of those 6 other sideboard cards though. Probably going to replace the main deck DoJ.
You're probably right, but at the same time I'm expecting Vampires and Werewolves to actually start becoming decks soon (or at least red-green sligh beats, and DoJ still holds some relevance against Tokens (though I agree its not the best sweeper). B
I agree with both of the above posters about Ratchet Bomb in the sideboard. I don't think DoJ is dead yet though.
Gideon Jura is an interesting inclusion. He's an expensive fog at worse, but could be a lot more.
I'm not sure I want 4 mill-finishers in the build, and I was even dubious about having 3.
I'm preferring Clinging Mist over Moonmist, but its close. Moonmist has the advantage of depowering delvers, but otherwise i'd rather keep to one MD. I'd probably run more if I was running Stonehorn Dignitary as a delver trap.
I agree with both of the above posters about Ratchet Bomb in the sideboard. I don't think DoJ is dead yet though.Gideon Jura is an interesting inclusion. He's an expensive fog at worse, but could be a lot more.I'm
I agree with both of the above posters about Ratchet Bomb in the sideboard. I don't think DoJ is dead yet though.
Gideon Jura is an interesting inclusion. He's an expensive fog at worse, but could be a lot more.
I'm not sure I want 4 mill-finishers in the build, and I was even dubious about having 3.
I'm preferring Clinging Mist over Moonmist, but its close. Moonmist has the advantage of depowering delvers, but otherwise i'd rather keep to one MD. I'd probably run more if I was running Stonehorn Dignitary as a delver trap.
I like moonmist because it costs 1 less mana. I've actually been looking into using the Curse of the Bloody Tome instead of Erasure, but not sure. You could hypothetically get more mill of Erasures, but having fewer curses is better than having fewer erasures. And yeah, Gideon is legit. I played him way back in the day in turbo, and if you drop him after a board wipe its GG
I like moonmist because it costs 1 less mana. I've actually been looking into using the Curse of the Bloody Tome instead of Erasure, but not sure. You could hypothetically get more mill of Erasures, but having fewer curses is better than having fewer
Thanks for the comments... I'm seeing two versions of this deck emerging - a 'creatureless' and 'creatureful' version.Version 1 - 'Creatureless' (sort of) BuildDraw / Mill (16)4 x Jace's Erasure 4 x Rites of Flo
Thanks for the comments... I'm seeing two versions of this deck emerging - a 'creatureless' and 'creatureful' version.
Yeah, I'm sure that a version of T-Fog with creatures could work, but the reason I loved T-Fog back in the day was because all their removal was just flat out dead cards when they drew it, which put my situation even better.
As for the deck lists, they both look good. Except for one card in version two: Consecrated Sphix. While I get why you might want it (you pretty much flat-out win when you play it with Erasure and Rites out) I feel like its so much of a "win-more" card in here that its just not going to be helpful.
And I just wish Curse of the Bloody Tome was 1 card for each curse the person had. It'd be SOOOOOOOO good. As it is now, it's a decent replacement for Jace's Erasure (1 Tome = 1 Erasure & Rites) But later on Erasure becomes better (4 Erasure 4 Rites = 20 cards, 4 Tomes = 8 Cards), though you probably wouldn't ever get up to a full 4 Erasure and Rites. I think somebody with a better brain than I should theory-craft that.
Yeah, I'm sure that a version of T-Fog with creatures could work, but the reason I loved T-Fog back in the day was because all their removal was just flat out dead cards when they drew it, which put my situation even better.As for the deck lists, the
Thanks for the comments... I'm seeing two versions of this deck emerging - a 'creatureless' and 'creatureful' version.
Yeah, I'm sure that a version of T-Fog with creatures could work, but the reason I loved T-Fog back in the day was because all their removal was just flat out dead cards when they drew it, which put my situation even better.
As for the deck lists, they both look good. Except for one card in version two: Consecrated Sphix. While I get why you might want it (you pretty much flat-out win when you play it with Erasure and Rites out) I feel like its so much of a "win-more" card in here that its just not going to be helpful.
And I just wish Curse of the Bloody Tome was 1 card for each curse the person had. It'd be SOOOOOOOO good. As it is now, it's a decent replacement for Jace's Erasure (1 Tome = 1 Erasure & Rites) But later on Erasure becomes better (4 Erasure 4 Rites = 20 cards, 4 Tomes = 8 Cards), though you probably wouldn't ever get up to a full 4 Erasure and Rites. I think somebody with a better brain than I should theory-craft that.
I agree that one of the strengths of turbofog builds is their ability to make creature removal useless. The creatue version really doesn't mind though if you kill it's creatures - they are effectively another fog and regrowth. noxious revival actually works better if they do waste spells killing the creatures. That said, I can't help liking the creatureless build a tad more.
Yeah, I'm sure that a version of T-Fog with creatures could work, but the reason I loved T-Fog back in the day was because all their removal was just flat out dead cards when they drew it, which put my situation even better.As for the deck lists, the
Man, I am totally running this. Such an awesome concept. I prefer the "creatureless" build, but for the Venser one, have you guys considered mimic vat?
Man, I am totally running this. Such an awesome concept. I prefer the "creatureless" build, but for the Venser one, have you guys considered mimic vat?
Man, I am totally running this. Such an awesome concept. I prefer the "creatureless" build, but for the Venser one, have you guys considered mimic vat?
I suspect that, as there is no way to sac creatures, your opponent could play around a mimic vat. I was thinking of including a singleton Spine of Ish Sah in the veneser build as it is immune to ancient grudge .
I suspect that, as there is no way to sac creatures, your opponent could play around a mimic vat. I was thinking of including a singleton Spine of Ish Sah in the veneser build as it is immune to ancient grudge
Think Blightsteel Colossus would be better, or Ray of Revelation to knock their Erasures/Tomes out.
I think that Spine/Venser will see play in UW control, along with Stonehorn. I'm betting it will make a comeback.
Think Blightsteel Colossus would be better, or Ray of Revelation to knock their Erasures/Tomes out.I think that Spine/Venser will see play in UW control, along with Stonehorn. I'm betting it will make a comeback.
So played today, and even in games where I didn't draw Rites I still nearly won, and the ones I did draw rites pretty much were auto-win. LOVE ME SOME FOGS!
So played today, and even in games where I didn't draw Rites I still nearly won, and the ones I did draw rites pretty much were auto-win. LOVE ME SOME FOGS!
Witchbane Orb in sideboard perhaps? I was thinking how this stops creatures no doubt, but
the chance of being beaten by burn damage is scary
Oh and I absolutely love this deck idea. Can't wait to construct this myself!
Witchbane Orb in sideboard perhaps? I was thinking how this stops creatures no doubt, but the chance of being beaten by burn damage is scary Oh and I absolutely love this deck idea. Can't wait to construct this myself!
If you're worried about somehow getting burned out, you could run Archangel's Light (though I advise against it) or just use your Elxir of Immoratality with Trinket Mage.
If you're worried about somehow getting burned out, you could run Archangel's Light (though I advise against it) or just use your Elxir of Immoratality with Trinket Mage.
Archangel's Light in a deck that should get to 8 mana against a burn deck should be no problem, and pretty much an upgrade to Elixir of Immortality (though it would be a 1 time use if you only ran one copy - unless you snapcasted it or some such).
Concerning Increasing Confusion in the creatureless deck, wouldn't 2x Mind Unbound be better - roughly the same mana commitment, but you get cards out of the deal, and more cards milled 4 turns out (with one Jace's Erasure out). It is less resistant to non-Dissipate counter magic though.
Archangel's Light in a deck that should get to 8 mana against a burn deck should be no problem, and pretty much an upgrade to Elixir of Immortality (though it would be a 1 time use i
Archangel's Light in a deck that should get to 8 mana against a burn deck should be no problem, and pretty much an upgrade to Elixir of Immortality (though it would be a 1 time use if you only ran one copy - unless you snapcasted it or some such).
Concerning Increasing Confusion in the creatureless deck, wouldn't 2x Mind Unbound be better - roughly the same mana commitment, but you get cards out of the deal, and more cards milled 4 turns out (with one Jace's Erasure out). It is less resistant to non-Dissipate counter magic though.
I'm considering running this deck with multiple copies of elixir of immortality simply because it is cheap and efficient lifegain and my meta is, of course, crawling with random aggro (Humans, Delver, rdw, etc.)
Increasing Confusion and Mind Unbound seem to do two different things here (assuming Erasure is out on the field). Confusion is essentially the devil's play for mill, except to the face. It is a "burn" mill spell. Mind Unbound draws cards, but as you said, takes about 4 turns before it would overtake the milling of confusion at the same mana cost.
Jman, what list are you running?
I'm considering running this deck with multiple copies of elixir of immortality simply because it is cheap and efficient lifegain and my meta is, of course, crawling with random aggro (Humans, Delver, rdw, etc.)Increasing Confusion and Mind Unbound s
Archangel's Light in a deck that should get to 8 mana against a burn deck should be no problem, and pretty much an upgrade to Elixir of Immortality (though it would be a 1 time use if you only ran one copy - unless you snapcasted it or some such).
Concerning Increasing Confusion in the creatureless deck, wouldn't 2x Mind Unbound be better - roughly the same mana commitment, but you get cards out of the deal, and more cards milled 4 turns out (with one Jace's Erasure out). It is less resistant to non-Dissipate counter magic though.
I'm considering running this deck with multiple copies of elixir of immortality simply because it is cheap and efficient lifegain and my meta is, of course, crawling with random aggro (Humans, Delver, rdw, etc.)
Increasing Confusion and Mind Unbound seem to do two different things here (assuming Erasure is out on the field). Confusion is essentially the devil's play for mill, except to the face. It is a "burn" mill spell. Mind Unbound draws cards, but as you said, takes about 4 turns before it would overtake the milling of confusion at the same mana cost.
Jman, what list are you running?
Nice Avatar - I just rewatched the series this week. Concerning my comments, Increasing Confusion is good as a finisher later, but if you have it in hand turn 6, you can merely tap out to mill 5 (I realize you would probably would want to leave Fog mana up, but this is just an example), and then next turn play a land and tap out to mill 12, so 17 total best case scenario turn 6.. At that point, I don't know if 17 cards would be enough to finish them. If it is not usually enough, then it seems to me that using 6 mana on Mind Unbound will do more good - you get cards out of the deal. Increasing Confusion is a better top deck late though, but at that point you should be pretty close with Jace's Erasure anyway and can hopefully just Fog 2 or 3 more times for the win.
About Elixir vs. Archangel, I see where you are coming from. Personally, I feel that Elixir just keeps you from dying a little bit, whereas a resolved Archangel's Light should win you the game. I think there are enough Fog effects in the deck to keep me from dying that I can go for the bigger win-type effect. But I do realize that the cost difference is huge.
I'm considering running this deck with multiple copies of elixir of immortality simply because it is cheap and efficient lifegain and my meta is, of course, crawling with random aggro (Humans, Delver, rdw, etc.)Increasing Confusion and Mind Unbound s
Archangel's Light in a deck that should get to 8 mana against a burn deck should be no problem, and pretty much an upgrade to Elixir of Immortality (though it would be a 1 time use if you only ran one copy - unless you snapcasted it or some such).
Concerning Increasing Confusion in the creatureless deck, wouldn't 2x Mind Unbound be better - roughly the same mana commitment, but you get cards out of the deal, and more cards milled 4 turns out (with one Jace's Erasure out). It is less resistant to non-Dissipate counter magic though.
I'm considering running this deck with multiple copies of elixir of immortality simply because it is cheap and efficient lifegain and my meta is, of course, crawling with random aggro (Humans, Delver, rdw, etc.)
Increasing Confusion and Mind Unbound seem to do two different things here (assuming Erasure is out on the field). Confusion is essentially the devil's play for mill, except to the face. It is a "burn" mill spell. Mind Unbound draws cards, but as you said, takes about 4 turns before it would overtake the milling of confusion at the same mana cost.
Jman, what list are you running?
Nice Avatar - I just rewatched the series this week. Concerning my comments, Increasing Confusion is good as a finisher later, but if you have it in hand turn 6, you can merely tap out to mill 5 (I realize you would probably would want to leave Fog mana up, but this is just an example), and then next turn play a land and tap out to mill 12, so 17 total best case scenario turn 6.. At that point, I don't know if 17 cards would be enough to finish them. If it is not usually enough, then it seems to me that using 6 mana on Mind Unbound will do more good - you get cards out of the deal. Increasing Confusion is a better top deck late though, but at that point you should be pretty close with Jace's Erasure anyway and can hopefully just Fog 2 or 3 more times for the win.
About Elixir vs. Archangel, I see where you are coming from. Personally, I feel that Elixir just keeps you from dying a little bit, whereas a resolved Archangel's Light should win you the game. I think there are enough Fog effects in the deck to keep me from dying that I can go for the bigger win-type effect. But I do realize that the cost difference is huge.
He is my favorite. You are looking at the two cards strictly on turn 6. What the confusion is good for is to finish them now or to shorten the inevitable mill clock really quickly. mind unbound would take turns to finish. Yes, you have the extra card draw into more fogs, but ending the game earlier is never a bad thing. Mind unbound is better against a control deck that isn't trying to smash your face in starting from turn 1. Finally, confusion is less disruptable (only dissipate really "stops" it completely), whereas mind unbound is both counterable and o-ringable. My personal preference would be 2 confusion in the main, and if you so fancy,mind unbound in the board.
Archangel is a sorcery. Again, with the above argument, obviously archangel's light will give you a better effect in the long run, but we don't really have time to set that up. Can't really use both, tho, as elixir takes out the graveyard cards. Also, as a side note, nihil spellbomb counteres archangel's light. I just think the elixir is better and more practical.
I'm considering running this deck with multiple copies of elixir of immortality simply because it is cheap and efficient lifegain and my meta is, of course, crawling with random aggro (Humans, Delver, rdw, etc.)Increasing Confusion and Mind Unbound s
So, I'll post my list in a bit. I want to test a new, rather earthshaking, build. If it works, players will be cursing me (pun intended). I've been having trouble actually DRAWING Rites a lot of games, which is really awkward when you end up with them being at 20 or so cards on turn ten or twelve, and you know you would have won with Rites instead of more Erasures.
Also, you're playing Increasing Confusion wrong. The trick is that you cast it for zero, then flash it back for the highest amount possible. You save it until you are ready to win, you don't just run it out. With Rites, you end up having a lot of mana. And Mind Unbound is overrated. You're looking at it from the perspective of what-if, when you should look at what-is, or what-is-likely. You are not going to have 4 Jace's Erasure most games.
On topic of Light v. Elixir, the Elixir only needs to buy you a turn or two, and if you do draw it late game then its nothing but a Reminisce. You want the life gain early, not late. That said, I've been looking at it for longer matchups, as another means of avoiding deck-out.
Anyway, off to test, then I'll post my list.
EDIT: Also, I wish we had Hallowed Burial. Stupid Undying, Flashback, Thrun, and all the other garbage that makes Day of Judgment the worst spell ever.
So, I'll post my list in a bit. I want to test a new, rather earthshaking, build. If it works, players will be cursing me (pun intended). I've been having trouble actually DRAWING Rites a lot of games, which is really awkward when you end up with the
4 Rites of Flourishing 4 Curse of the Bloody Tome 1 Jace, Memory Adept 2 Gideon Jura 2 Increasing Confusion 2 Blunt the Assault 4 Moonmist 3 Chocking Vines 4 Fog 2 Snapcaster Mage 2 Elixir of Immortality 2 DoJ 3 Beast Within 26 Land, that I kept changing every game I played
And YES, I am running 61 cards. When you are on the draw this can actually matter. But, if you are one of those crazy people who think this is a bad idea, you should cut either a Beast Within or a Increasing Confusion. The deck tested okay, I was originally splashing black for Curse of Misfortune and Curse of Exhaustion, but quickly took that out (Exhaustion was in my SB, but I never SB'd). The deck did so-so, about as well as you expect: If they had any way of dealing large amounts of Direct Damage (that new Undying guy that is a Pandemodeum was a big problem) then you probably aren't going to win. Just remember, your life total is a buffer, not something you have to protect. Avoid getting TOO low against most decks, but there are definitely decks that I have no qualms going to 1 life against.
Well, here's what I played:4 Rites of Flourishing4 Curse of the Bloody Tome1 Jace, Memory Adept2 Gideon Jura2 Increasing Confusion2 Blunt the Assault4 Moonmist3 Chocking Vines4 Fog2 Snapcaster Mage2 Elixir of Immortality2 DoJ3 Beast Within26 Land, th
Also, you're playing Increasing Confusion wrong. The trick is that you cast it for zero, then flash it back for the highest amount possible. You save it until you are ready to win, you don't just run it out. With Rites, you end up having a lot of mana. And Mind Unbound is overrated. You're looking at it from the perspective of what-if, when you should look at what-is, or what-is-likely. You are not going to have 4 Jace's Erasure most games.
You know, I didn't really think about just dumping it into the grave. Still, I feel like getting some value off the first cast isn't a bad idea. Also, Erasure vs Tome. I think I would rather have an erasure over the Tome, because one particular reason sticks out clearly in my mind, and that is the one less mana cost.
4 Rites of Flourishing 4 Curse of the Bloody Tome 1 Jace, Memory Adept 2 Gideon Jura 2 Increasing Confusion 2 Blunt the Assault 4 Moonmist 3 Chocking Vines 4 Fog 2 Snapcaster Mage 2 Elixir of Immortality 2 DoJ 3 Beast Within 26 Land, that I kept changing every game I played
And YES, I am running 61 cards. When you are on the draw this can actually matter. But, if you are one of those crazy people who think this is a bad idea, you should cut either a Beast Within or a Increasing Confusion. The deck tested okay, I was originally splashing black for Curse of Misfortune and Curse of Exhaustion, but quickly took that out (Exhaustion was in my SB, but I never SB'd). The deck did so-so, about as well as you expect: If they had any way of dealing large amounts of Direct Damage (that new Undying guy that is a Pandemodeum was a big problem) then you probably aren't going to win. Just remember, your life total is a buffer, not something you have to protect. Avoid getting TOO low against most decks, but there are definitely decks that I have no qualms going to 1 life against.
Beast within is genius! Is 2 snappies enough? I feel like reusing any used up fogs to their maximum value would help a lot. Also, if you have issues with drawing the rites, would ponder be of use here, or no space?
You know, I didn't really think about just dumping it into the grave. Still, I feel like getting some value off the first cast isn't a bad idea.Also, Erasure vs Tome. I think I would rather have an erasure over the Tome, because one particular reason
@Jman... Beast Within (especially when running snapcaster mage) is definitely something this deck wants. I'm going to post your deck on the OP as one of the variants.
Increasing Confusion vs Mind Unbound... I tend to come down on the IC. As has been pointed out, if it is simply a case of casting on turn 6 and 7, IC wins out. And in attrition, MU wins out. If it is countered (other than dissipate, which is a tie) IC wins out. Against O-Ring, Beast Within, Naturalize, IC wins out. Against Nihil Spellbomb, IC comes in second but STILL gets one mill in.
@Jman... Beast Within (especially when running snapcaster mage) is definitely something this deck wants. I'm going to post your deck on the OP as one of the variants.Increasing Confusion vs Mind Unbound... I tend to come down on the IC. As has been p
I'm taking a version of this deck to my FNM tonight. I'll try and post a quick summary afterwards while it's still relatively fresh in my mind. The deck list is similar to Jman22's with some slight differences:
And yes, I know I don't have the Scars lands in here. I don't own the relevent ones, and I'm sure as hell not paying $15+ea for them, so I'm not going to worry about it at this point. That's fine, as this deck shouldn't have too many mana issues...
I'm taking a version of this deck to my FNM tonight. I'll try and post a quick summary afterwards while it's still relatively fresh in my mind. The deck list is similar to Jman22's with some slight differences:Creatures (3)3x Snapcaster Mage
I've tried a similar idea of a deck, but I don't use blue, and my win condition is Knowledge Pool + Curse of Exhaustion . The way I understand it, after it resolves neither players can cast spells (well, I'd get to eventually), so I'd be counting on stabilizing the board first with day of judgement or O-Ring, and then beating them down with either Gideon, a saproling token made from Druidic Satchel , or hoping they scoop once they realize they won't be able to cast anymore spells. Now, I could be incorrect about this combo working but I'm fairly certain of it.
I've tried a similar idea of a deck, but I don't use blue, and my win condition is Knowledge Pool + Curse of Exhaustion . The way I understand it, after it resolves neither player
I've tried a similar idea of a deck, but I don't use blue, and my win condition is Knowledge Pool + Curse of Exhaustion . The way I understand it, after it resolves neither players can cast spells (well, I'd get to eventually), so I'd be counting on stabilizing the board first with day of judgement or O-Ring, and then beating them down with either Gideon, a saproling token made from Druidic Satchel , or hoping they scoop once they realize they won't be able to cast anymore spells. Now, I could be incorrect about this combo working but I'm fairly certain of it.
I think you're correct about the "Curse of Knowledge" combo. Nice find. I'm not how I would build that into the decklists I currently have, but would be interested to see that go off.
I think you're correct about the "Curse of Knowledge" combo. Nice find. I'm not how I would build that into the decklists I currently have, but would be interested to see that go off.
Concerning my comments, Increasing Confusion is good as a finisher later, but if you have it in hand turn 6, you can merely tap out to mill 5 (I realize you would probably would want to leave Fog mana up, but this is just an example), and then next turn play a land and tap out to mill 12, so 17 total best case scenario turn 6.. At that point, I don't know if 17 cards would be enough to finish them. If it is not usually enough, then it seems to me that using 6 mana on Mind Unbound will do more good - you get cards out of the deal. Increasing Confusion is a better top deck late though, but at that point you should be pretty close with Jace's Erasure anyway and can hopefully just Fog 2 or 3 more times for the win.
