To me the idea of lethal combat damage is the amount that keeps that creature 'busy' long enough for trample damage to get past him. Even if it doesn't kill him, you've given him a lot of tickles to contend with. So it would seem sensible to me that a creature that's dealt pseudo-lethal damage by first strike is still 'saturated' with hurt and able to be bypassed just as if he was hit at the same time as a slower hitting trampler; all that's happens is he got smacked about by someone with a really fast sword and stuff before he's ready to fight the slow guys, that's gotta take the wind out of him just as much.
Yeah.
It seems just more by the problems with definitions and mechanics it's ended up with this strange answer of 8, that he has to be whacked twice in a short space of time for the same effect as getting whacked once (getting pain saturated). I still think 'considered having been dealt lethal damage for the purposes of assigning combat damage this turn' would have been better, instead of somewhat leaving the word 'considered' to interpretation.
To me trample is that you have so much force you get to keep going on through something instead of just dealing with it.
Death touch interacts with it in that you can kind of trick the other creature by just tapping it and get around it.
So the first creature tapped and got around, but it didn't bring its buddy along. The buddy still has to deal with the creature that is still alive.
Then again depend on how the interaction is if they both had just regular strike, or if a single creature had double strike, then I could be completely just wrong.
Compare ruleswise with two 5/5 tramplers (no deathtouch) blocked by an indestructible Palace Guard.
If both strike normally, they can assign 4 to Palace Guard between them and trample over with 6.
If one strikes with first strike and the other normally we get the same result, 6 trampling through. The first assigns 4 and tramples over 1, and the second can trample over all 5.
With deathtouch and two 5/5 tramplers, if they strike in the same step 9 tramples through, but if one strikes first the result changes to 8 trampling through.
Now it makes sense based on the rules, but the result seems odd. Just saying.
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Wit found in Rules Q&A
RPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?"
Think about it this way: You have a 5/5 creature enchanted by Indestructibility. It blocks a 2/2 deathtouch creature. During the second main phase, Indestructibility is destroyed. Do you think the 5/5 is destroyed now?
Indeed. And anyway, the destroying is done if damage with deathtouch has been done since last time state based effects were checked. Once it's done, it's done. Because if what makes the creature indestructible is removed later on the turn, even if the damage could still be tracked as being deathtouchy, it wouldn't result in the creature being destroyed, as no damage from a source with deathtouch has been dealt to it SINCE LAST TIME SBE WERE CHECKED.
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?
How to autocard (do this to specify a card in your posts): Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus . Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One .
Think about it this way: You have a 5/5 creature enchanted by Indestructibility. It blocks a 2/2 deathtouch creature. During the second main phase, Indestructibility is destroyed. Do you think the 5/5 is destroyed now?
I wish I could go back to being a n00b. Ignorance was, in fact, bliss.
It all depends on whom you're playing with!
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
I'm just gonna alter my version of the rules with yellow crayon until I like what it says.
I think having two definitions of "lethal damage" is not helping matters. I would reserve "lethal damage" to just means damage equal to a creatures toughness, which only matters during SBA check. When finding out how you can assign combat damage, there should be another name like "resistance" where
Resistance of a creature = Toughness of that creature - Damage marked on creature
Each creature must assign damage equal to the first blocking creature in the queue's resistance, before moving onto the next and so on. And I'd make it so if (any amount of) deathtouch damage is assigned to a creature during combat, that creature's resistance becomes zero until end of turn. Thus he is out of the action; even if he's poked by a first striker prior to fighting someone. I imagine there's not flavourfully meant to be half an hour between the first strike in combat and the regular guys hitting each other for the distraction of being deathtouched to wear off that fast.
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«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
I'm just gonna alter my version of the rules with yellow crayon until I like what it says.
I think having two definitions of "lethal damage" is not helping matters. I would reserve "lethal damage" to just means damage equal to a creatures toughness, which only matters during SBA check. When finding out how you can assign combat damage, there should be another name like "resistance" where
Resistance of a creature = Toughness of that creature - Damage marked on creature
Each creature must assign damage equal to the first blocking creature in the queue's resistance, before moving onto the next and so on. And I'd make it so if (any amount of) deathtouch damage is assigned to a creature during combat, that creature's resistance becomes zero until end of turn. Thus he is out of the action; even if he's poked by a first striker prior to fighting someone. I imagine there's not flavourfully meant to be half an hour between the first strike in combat and the regular guys hitting each other for the distraction of being deathtouched to wear off that fast.
How can you know that a specific damage is from a deathtouch nature? You'd have to use counters. :P Not that great.
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?
How to autocard (do this to specify a card in your posts): Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus . Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One .
@Zoidberg: if you can remember how much damage is marked, you should be able to remember which came from a source with deathtouch
MtG Rules Advisor & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ DJ Vortex
DCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320
Wit found in Rules Q&A
RPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?"
