I didn't think it was a question. The rule's pretty explicit.
Deathtouch damage only tries to destroy a creature the first time state-based actions are checked since it was dealt. Otherwise, you couldn't regenerate from deathtouch damage very effectively, since the action would just apply again.
I'd like to take the time to congratulate Psyconfuse for the quality of his (her?) question; not often do we get a real Rules question posted!
(95% of questions are like «Tell me what Trample does 'cause I'm too lazy to read even the Basic Rulebook.»)
Nice job Psy!
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Deathtouch damage only tries to destroy a creature the first time state-based actions are checked since it was dealt. Otherwise, you couldn't regenerate from deathtouch damage very effectively, since the action would just apply again.
Regeneration REMOVES damage, Deathtouch or not.
Toughness-level damage will destroy an has-been-indestructible, but Deathtouch damage won't?
That seems counter-intuitive to me.
«Dystocracy : A system of government in which corrupt leadership colludes with dishonest bankers and greedy elites in order to ensure that productive members of society –people who actually do useful work- bear the greatest share of taxes while gaining the least benefit possible.»
Deathtouch damage only tries to destroy a creature the first time state-based actions are checked since it was dealt. Otherwise, you couldn't regenerate from deathtouch damage very effectively, since the action would just apply again.
Regeneration REMOVES damage, Deathtouch or not.
Sure, but the rule for the state-based action doesn't care whether the damage is still on the creature.
Toughness-level damage will destroy an has-been-indestructible, but Deathtouch damage won't?
That seems counter-intuitive to me.
The deathtouch state-based action seems designed to operate similarly to a triggered ability, in that it only happens once and it happens immediately after the damage is dealt.
Given this, I suspect that the intended functionality of the rules in the OP's situation is to only get 8 damage through.
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
So if the creature later that turn stopped being indestructible, the damage wouldn't destroy it.
Eh! that's a very good question!!! Is it so?
The answer is no, the creature would not be destroyed, any more than a player would lose for failing to draw a card in his or her draw step if their Platinum Angel was destroyed in their Main Phase. The SBA destroyes the creature if it has been dealt damage from a source with Deathtouch since the last time SBAs were checked. If an indestructible creature ceases to be indestructible after the SBA check following the dealing of the damage by the source with Deathtouch, subsequent SBAs don't see it because the damage was dealt before a previous SBA.
On the OPs question, the phrase "lethal damage" has two different definitions, not one.
"Lethal damage" in the context of destroying creatures is "an amount of damage marked on the creature greater than or equal to that creature's toughness.
"Lethal damage" in the context of assigning combat damage is "The toughness of the creature minus damage already marked on the creature minus damage assigned by other creatures during the same combat damage step."
Consider the wording of the rule.
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature’s toughness. See rules 510.1c–d.
Clearly, that is looking at the action of assigning combat damage and only the action of assigning combat damage. After damage is dealt, if the creature survives the SBA then all the game knows is that the creature has one damage marked on it. The game does not care what properties the source had (and asking players to care opens a huge can of memory problems).
I would have to say 8 damage. I can find nothing in the rules that say an object "remembers" that it was dealt Deathtouch damage. Deathtouch only matters the "next" time SBA's are checked. So if the creature is Indestructible at the time it's dealth Deathtouch damage, then loses Indestructibility later on after SBA's were checked, but still has a toughness greater than the damage currently on it, then it will not be destroyed.
It was dealt lethal damage earlier in the turn, but having "Lethal Damage" on an object is not something remembered by that object. Deathtouch is also something not remembered by an object past the next time SBA's are checked.
Thus, I'd have to say 8 damage gets through, not 9. First Strike Combat Damage Step the creature assigns 1 damage - which will be lethal damage, to the defending Indestructible creature with Toughness greater than 2. The other 4 damage goes to the player.
Both players receive priority, and SBA's are checked before they do. The game "sees" that the Indestructible creature has been dealt damage by a source with Deathtouch since the last time the SBA's were checked, and tries to destroy the creature. Being Indestructible, though, the creature is not destroyed. The next time SBA's are checked, the game does not see anything as having been dealt Deathtouch damage since the last time it was checked.
Then the regular Combat Damage Step occurs. As far as the game is concerned, there is 1 damage marked on the creature. The game does not know that this came from a source with Deathtouch. This is because the last time SBA's were checked, nothing had been dealt damage by a source with Deathtouch. Thus, it's a creature with 1 damage on it of no particular significance. In order to assign Lethal damage, 1 Deathtouch damage is required before trampling over for an additional 4.
The thing is, there is NO such thing as damage having a "type". "Deathtouch Damage" does not exist. It's just a go-to phrase used by players to simplify the rules. All that exists is a State-Based Action that checks to see if something was dealt damage by a source with Deathtouch. It doesn't ask "is the damage DEATHTOUCH damage?", it just asks where the damage came from, and ONLY cares if it came from something between now and the last time SBA's were checked. If it didn't come from any time inbetween then, it doesn't care.
For me, that's pretty case closed. Show me where it says that damage has a type, and I'd change my answer - but damage does not have a type.
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The only thing I hope we can all agree on is that the rules should be much clearer than they are. A new rule being put in should be totally clear, and us rules-types trying to figure it out isn't a good sign. I am siding with it being 8 now, but I think that's stupid intuitively, and this 'considered' business should be more carefully explained.
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Toughness-level damage will destroy an has-been-indestructible, but Deathtouch damage won't?
That seems counter-intuitive to me.
Personally, I don't think it's any less "intuitive" than that a player will lose if his Platinum Angel is removed while he's at nonpositive life, but will not lose if the Angel is removed after he's failed to draw a card from an empty library. Or, if you want a deathtouch analogue, will not lose if the Angel is removed sometime after the player was hit by Phage the Untouchable .
Oh, and for the record, I agree that the answer to the OP question is 8.
There's no such thing as "deathtouch damage". The game only looks for creatures that have been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time State based actions were checked.
Since SBA are checked before any player received priority, deathtouch only works once. If it fails the game doesn't keep trying to rekill that same permanent.
The rules for destroying a creature for having lethal damage, and the rules for destroying a creature that has been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch are completely differnt and work differently.
If you don't like this, make a thread in Rules theory. This forum is for how the rules are right now, not how they should be.
Now that I've read answers in this thread more, I'd tend to think 8 too.
Deathtouch is actually two things: - The first one is that a creature with toughness greater than 0 that's been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions where checked is destroyed as a state-based action. And it's true, deathtouch doesn't destroy the creature, rules do, just as regular damage doesn't destroy a creature if the amount of damage is greater or equal to the creature's toughness. It's an exception to said rule of the said state-based action.
- The second one is that any non-zero amount of damage ASSIGNED to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered lethal and is an exception to the assign lethal damage to the first creature inline before assigning damage to the next one. And this one is an exception to the damage assignment when multiple blockers/attackers are involved. Originally this part of deathtouch was an exception to the damage assignment order as a whole and that is what have been changed with M2011 rules.
None of those two exception applies in the OP's situation.
First-strike damage assignment comes in. One damage minimum is assigned to the blocker and the rest on defending player. That's the second exception to deathtouch rule (with the aid of trample's, of course). The blocker, as it's indestructible, is not destroyed. That's an exception to the first exception of deathtouch (and to the "regular damage equal or greater to toughness" state-based action). BUT damage is still marked on it (because it's not protection). Non first-strike damage assignment comes in now. And as the blocking creature is still there, still blocking and with a number of damage marked on it smaller than its toughness, 1 damage has to be assigned again, but no more is needed as it's from a creature with deathtouch (exception 2) that assigns its damage on it, and the rest on the defending player (again with the aid of trample).
Magic rules is a game of exceptions and interactions between them (with a coupl of general rules), one has just to think about which apply where and when.
I think we've nailed it but a confirmation of a judge or two will be nice.
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?
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