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3 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2010 - 11:13AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2005
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George controls 2 Acidic Slimes, one enchanted with Reflexes. He casts overrun and attacks Sylvia. Sylvia controls a Palace Guard enchanted with Indestructibility. Sylvia declares the Palace Guard to block both creatures.
In summary we have two creatures attacking: 5/5 Deathtouch, first strike, trample 5/5 Deathtouch Trample
Both being blocked by 1/4 Indestructible
What is the maximum damage that can be dealt to Sylvia from this attack?
There is debate between 9 or 8 damage. People who argue 9 say when the non first striking creatures deals its damage, it already takes into account that lethal damage has been assigned to the creature so the full 5 comes through.
People who argue 8 say the damage is dealt in the previous step, but after states are checked and the attempt at destruction occurs, the damage does not remember it was from a source, so the second attacker still has to assign the 1 damage to the blocker.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2010 - 11:20AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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I would say 9, based on this note in the FAQ: If a creature with deathtouch and another creature both block or are blocked by a creature, the other creature may take into account the fact that any combat damage dealt by a creature with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2010 - 11:29AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2003
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Yeah it's 9, whether or not one of them has first strike.
In this case, the 1 damage is still on the indestructible creature, it hasn't gone away after the first combat damage step. So it's still considered having 'lethal damage' so the trampler can ignore it in the second step.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2010 - 11:29AM
#4
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Date Joined:
May 15, 2010
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Eight.
The first-striking 5/5 deathtouch trampler has to assignl lethal damage, either damage equal to toughness (4) or one deathtouch. Naturally, you choose to assign one to the Guard and trample four.
Then, the normal-striker has to deal damage equal to toughness minus marked damage (three), or one deathtouch. The creature does NOT have lethal damage marked on it (Deathtouch damage is only lethal during damage assignment, not once it's been dealt and is sitting on a creature. Even assigning damage during the second phase, the death-touchness of the damage goes away after SBA's are checked and the Deathtouch one has tried and failed to destroy it), so you have to deal your single token damage to it before trampling through.
Rules Nut Advisor
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3 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2010 - 11:30AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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It seems to me that what rudolf quoted only addresses cases where multiple creatures are dealing damage simultaneously, though.
I've just done a search through the comprules for the phrase "lethal damage", and there's nothing that makes it clear whether a creature with damage from a source with deathtouch is still considered lethally damaged after the next SBE check (though 702.2b might appear to imply that it is), in the way a creature with damage >= toughness is.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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3 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2010 - 11:32AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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(Deathtouch damage is only lethal during damage assignment, not once it's been dealt and is sitting on a creature.
Why? I lean in this direction too but it's not clear to me from the comprules. This is not a case where I'm satisified with the mere absence of anything that says differently, as that argument can be used by either side in this case.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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3 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2010 - 11:36AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2005
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Eight.
The first-striking 5/5 deathtouch trampler has to assignl lethal damage, either damage equal to toughness (4) or one deathtouch. Naturally, you choose to assign one to the Guard and trample four.
Then, the normal-striker has to deal damage equal to toughness minus marked damage (three), or one deathtouch. The creature does NOT have lethal damage marked on it (Deathtouch damage is only lethal during damage assignment, not once it's been dealt and is sitting on a creature. Even assigning damage during the second phase, the death-touchness of the damage goes away after SBA's are checked and the Deathtouch one has tried and failed to destroy it), so you have to deal your single token damage to it before trampling through.
This rule doesn't say it's not considered lethal damage after the first combat damage step. It just says that any non-zero combat damage is considered to be lethal damage.
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature’s toughness. There's another rule that says the creature won't be destroyed, but that doesn't seem to negate that the creature has lethal damage on it and so the creature with trample doesn't need to assign it any more damage.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2010 - 11:39AM
#8
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Date Joined:
May 15, 2010
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Ok, here's the relevant rules: Spoiler:
Show
Combat damage assignment:
510.1c A blocked creature assigns its combat damage to the creatures blocking it. If no creatures are currently blocking it (if, for example, they were destroyed or removed from combat), it assigns no combat damage. If exactly one creature is blocking it, it assigns all its combat damage to that creature. If two or more creatures are blocking it, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that's actually dealt. An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it.
Deathtouch: 702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness. See rules 510.1c-d.
702.2c A creature with toughness greater than 0 that's been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked is destroyed as a state-based action. See rule 704.
SBA's: 704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it's been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
Note how the SBA's don't consider Deathtouch damage lethal. It's only "lethal damage" while assigning. Once it's been dealt, it uses a completely different set of rules, and gets its own SBA. Also note that the combat damage rules only care about two things: the damage that's on the creature and the damage assigned to it in that step. The fact that the one damage on the Guard was lethal during the last step is irrelevant to assigning damage. It still needs to be dealt lethal damage during this combat damage step.
Rules Nut Advisor
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3 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2010 - 11:40AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2003
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Yeah I was just about to post the exact same rule and say the same thing!
The SBA says this:
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.
So if the creature later that turn stopped being indestructible, the damage wouldn't destroy it. That sort of, but not conclusively, implies that the damage stops being lethal damage... but the rule rudolf quoted doesn't say it stops being lethal damage after a certain point. The whole 'lethal damage' thing is always a bit fiddly.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2010 - 11:46AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2003
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Hmm... yeah I remember reading some weird article about this now to do with lethal damage having a very strange definition and it being to do with assigning damage and something being 'lethal damage' doesn't actually do anything... I guess it's just a name for it.
I guess the rule is saying it's "considered" to be lethal damage, just for the purposes of assigning damage, but it isn't actually lethal damage. Could be a lot clearer though I think. It says it's considered to be lethal damage, but it doesn't say it's considered lethal damage only with regard to assigning combat damage. Or just considered it while it's assigned but not when it's dealt... yeah it could be a lot clearer, I can see this causes mucho problems.
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