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Jul 21, 2010 -- 10:32AM, Lunaar wrote:

Jul 21, 2010 -- 9:39AM, Zigeif777 wrote:

Or you could try being resourceful... just do what I do. Admittedly, I have one of the better set-ups here, so it might be different for you guys. Buy a bunch of crap at birthdays, christmas, all that jazz and then use the valuable stuff you get to trade for other, possibly less valuable stuff later. For example, my birthday is in October so I spent crap-tons of money, WAAAY more than I have the rest of the year, on Zen packs and got plenty of fetches and other good cards. Then I used Christmas money to buy the rest of the stuff for a Boros deck.

When I turn 12 again, and start getting money on Christmas and my birthday, I'll keep this in mind.

"Budget whiners" have a valid point. This article is called Building on a Budget, not 'Expensive Cards that can Stand Up to the Current Metagame'. Maybe instead of using mythics and rares, BoaB could try being resourceful and use commons and uncommons (and low budget rares) to build fun decks. You know, like the article used to do. This article used to LOVE low budget rares. How many lame ass rares that you have 6 of did you suddenly start using because of this article?

Yes, I would consider Pyromancer's Ascension a low budget rare. Time Warp, maybe. But Jace? Jace, i.e. this decks only back up win condition if you can't get LBs off? I don't think so.

The thing is JVL is a competitive, tournament player author. Fun and creative Standard decks made out of commons and uncommons can be interesting, but frankly, they rarely beat tier 1 Standard decks. The scope of JVL's version of BoaB is "winning while paying much less than average", and his decks most often manage to hold their own in the current format while costing much, much less than the average tournament deck.  "Budget" is a very relative term.  JVL's definition of it doesn't fit purely casual, very budget players, but it does fit his intended audience : players that want to win and are bright enough to realize that building from stratch a deck that wins tournaments costs a certain amount of money, but still want ideas and tricks for it to cost a bit less.

I like this deck a lot. It is definately budget while remaining competitive. I always enjoy reading anything Jacob writes because it is well thought out, practical and affordable. Whats up with all the negativity? First of all you don't have to post your negative comments like a bunch of stuck up punks with a better than everyone else, god's gift to magic attitude! This is about having fun, its not a about seeing who had the biggest (fill in the blank). Moving forward to more strategy with this deck. Many people talk about weakness to Leylines. They could be a factor if they come out on first turn, otherwise you have mana leak if necessary. How many people are really gonna be running leylines? Well, that remains to be seen. Even with 4 copies the odds are okay for opening hand, but not quite consistent. Every deck has its weakness. You can't expect a $40 deck to take over standard, but you might win some FNMs. If nothing else you can have some fun casual games OL or at a friend's. Isn't that what decks like this are for?

Sideboard thoughts.. (I've never been great at sideboarding so I'm hoping for constructive help or reinforcement)

Red Deck matches: -4 Spreading Seas +4 Rest for the Weary -1 Island -1 Mountain +2 Plains

U/W Control: -4 Spreading Seas +4 Jace Beleren

Jund: Keep Main Deck

Turboland: -4 Spreading Seas +4 Earthquake

Fauna Shaman: Keep Main Deck

Monogreen Creature Based: -4 Spreading Seas +4 Earthquake

Any other matchups I am forgetting with sideboard ideas? What would you change?

If I were to give Jacob contructive criticism it would be to include more in depth about sideboard. However, to follow that up he usually does point out key concepts. I just like any depth I can get as I am still a relatively new player and I know I am not alone.

Jul 21, 2010 -- 12:53PM, hannaleak wrote:

A BoaB article isn't going to miraculously let you flex your budget to something it's not. A BoaB article doesn't control your budget. You control your budget. If you want to make something happen, it will happen, as the term budget usually coincides with sacrifices.

That said, it does make whatever budget you work with pretty focused, to the point where your dollar goes far in a world of expensive tier 1 decks.

My criticisms of BoaB in it's current form is that it doesn't really help budget players as much as past articles.

First and foremost the building aspect is what allows budget players to be able to build a deck with the cards that they have. Since the point is not to netdeck whatever Jacob builds but to demonstrate that good, innovative decks have the potential to be competitive even for budget players I think that we need more deckbuilding in the articles. Give a man a deck and he can play until the next set is released. Teach a man to build decks and he can play forever.

Second picking cards like time warp right before rotation and pyromancer's ascension which doesn't have many applications outside of this (or a similar) decklist is the opposite of what you mention about "dollar goes far in a world of expensive tier 1 decks." Past authors have broken down sets by budget friendly cards. Cards like mana leak and negate have been praised as being budget friendly and they have the longevity and consistency that you can't find so buying mana leak is a good investment. Their versitility and the fact that they can be used in so many different decklists makes them important budget options. Narrow cards like pyromancer's ascension and phylactery lich should be avoided (if possible) because they will hit the shelf as soon as you get bored of that ONE deck.

I actually enjoy these articles a lot however I feel that they need to change the name. There is no deckbuilding tips in the collumn and there really isn't a "budget"

Jul 21, 2010 -- 1:02PM, MadMageQc wrote:

The thing is JVL is a competitive, tournament player author. Fun and creative Standard decks made out of commons and uncommons can be interesting, but frankly, they rarely beat tier 1 Standard decks. The scope of JVL's version of BoaB is "winning while paying much less than average", and his decks most often manage to hold their own in the current format while costing much, much less than the average tournament deck.  "Budget" is a very relative term.  JVL's definition of it doesn't fit purely casual, very budget players, but it does fit his intended audience : players that want to win and are bright enough to realize that building from stratch a deck that wins tournaments costs a certain amount of money, but still want ideas and tricks for it to cost a bit less.

It seems to me like he doesn't do much of either. Usually his budget decks fall pretty short when it comes to "tier 1" it's not like he'd ever consider them for a tournament he was attending and the only people who can actually buy the decks he posts are the ones (like hannaleak) who spend money on starbucks every morning and are willing to give it up for a few weeks.

Jul 22, 2010 -- 5:29AM, writer1007 wrote:

Am I missing something?

You can't combo off with a single Call to Mind and a single Time Warp .

You cast your Time Warp and copy it. You cast your Call to Mind and copy it. Your copy gets back Time Warp (Copy resolves first as it states in the rules Pyromancer's Ascension ) You cannot target the Call to Mind to bring it back because it is not in the graveyard yet......

Yep, it's assumed by that time (you've got an active Ascension), you've already used at least one Call to Mind .

In the event that you didn't, the best bet is to have one of the 2 calls target a Ponder or Preordain to sift through your library for that 2nd Call to maintain the loop or hit another Time Warp and spin the wheel again.

Hmm...okay, the debate has shifted away from what cards to add in to how budget this thing is. 

Okay, let's just first address the issue of so-called 'narrow' cards like Pyromancer Ascension.  True, you can't really put Ascension anywhere that isn't spell-laden.  But then, you can't put Beastmaster Ascension anyplace that isn't creature-laden.  Same goes for Eldrazi Monument and budget alternative Overrun. 

Yet Overrun and Beastmaster can be put in a mono-green aggro deck, a green-blue fish deck or even a white-green defensive deck, as a final pump for otherwise innocuous creatures (I demand so see someone kill with Goldenglow Moth!). 

The fact that cards have a narrow application doesn't mean the strategies you put them in are all going to be the same.  I had a Grixis deck that abused Pyromancer Ascension along with Soul Manipulation and some vampires (one Gatekeeper, lots of killin's).  Another apporach could be a red-black deck with heavy discard, a minimal creature base (like Goblin Ruinblaster), Tectonic Edge and Grim Discovery.  Heck, you could use the same idea in a red-green acceleration deck along with Nature's Spiral.  Cultivate, Explore...what, no Harmonize this year? Anyway, Bestial Menace...and maybe Sphinx-Bone Wand would actually work in that kind of setup.  And if you want a cheap casual deck without time limits: Ire of Friggin' Kaminari.  No guaranteeing that any of these will be a good deck, but that's beside the point.  The point is: narrow application of one card doesn't mean all the decks it's in are identical. 

Now, to get back at actual deckbuilding. 
White for Silence was a random idea with no merit at all.  I just brought it up because people were nagging about the budget.  If you do add white, you could easily add Survival Cache and of course Rest for the Weary main.  Then there's War-Priest of Thune for opposing Oblivion Rings (if any).  The problem you'll run into then is sixty-card syndrome: what to cut for them? I honestly don't know, the best I've managed to acquire is two Call to Mind, zero Preordains, and the Archive Trap/Roiling Terrain schtick.  Will require testing, obviously. 

As a matter of fact, if any colour is going to get added, I'd try going with green.  No, not for the silliness with the Bone-Wand, though it could be added as a two-of.  Cultivate or Explore for Ponder or Preordain, and possibly some Tectonic Edges and Nature's Spiral to recur those lands.  But that last one is going to really mess up your curve if you don't go all-out green mana-fixing. 

Hadn't thought of Bojuka Bog s a counter, actually.  Does that work? It seems kinda ill-timed if the Ascension is active already.  Valid point against the engine itself, though. 


Also, to further add to the budget debate: how much is Stormtide Leviathan going for right now? I merely ask on account of Quest for Ula's Temple and Scry being in the same Standard environment.  Now that could be a competitive budget deck.