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Switch to Forum Live View 7/19/2010 MM: "The Multiplay's The Thing"
3 years ago  ::  Jul 16, 2010 - 12:38PM #1
Garmichael
Date Joined: Jun 24, 2008
Posts: 1,572
This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2010 - 10:34PM #2
willpell
Date Joined: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 4,833
Divination is a bad example for the targeting thing because card draw is one of the effects you're less likely to want to share.  When you spend a card to draw two cards, you're essentially drawing one card for free; when you target someone else this way, you're sacrificing one card yourself to give them two completely free cards.  It's a major difference, and you'd have to be really good friends with the other person.

I want Apply Knowledge to be a real card.  Not the multiplayer version, since that's too similar to the Storm mechanic, but the purely one-sided and cheap version.  It would make for some neat "big turns" of casting nothing but small, wimpy spells and harvesting a huge payoff - this would feel very "wizardly" and make a nice change from the usual conservation of resources.

I wonder if Maro realizes that "multiplayer Mind Rot" already exists as Unnerve .  And it costs more than Mind Rot because of the extra power of emptying all your opponents' hands.  Granted it makes you a lot of enemies, but it also means they have less to hit you with, so it's definitely still potent.  Especially with Liliana's Caress x2 on the table.

The multiplayer Congregate is hackily templated; it should say "Target player gains 2 life for each creature another target player controls".  "On the battlefield" is not necessary once you're checking controllers.

Neither version of Blow 'em Up has the word "target" on it; I wonder if that was intentional.

The non-multiplayer Rot Away being green kind of gave away that its multiplayer version was an adjusted version of Crumble .  Green doesn't spend life for power (and black doesn't get to blow up artifacts).  Also the difference between Rot Away and Crumble is more than just about whether you're in multiplayer; it's MUCH safer to give the opponent extra life than to spend your own.  Lowering your life means risking a lethal burn spell to the face, while giving the opponent extra life makes little difference if your creatures are of the huge and unstoppable variety.  If I give you 8 life and then attack twice with a 14/14 unblockable, your 28 life is no better than 20.

MaRo's math sucks.  In a multiplayer game with six opponents, dealing 120 damage results in a tie (if it's divided evenly).  You need to deal 100, and not kill yourself.  But the point still stands that big dudes are better in multiplayer.  In particular, burn and suicide aggro strategies work poorly, unless you're very good at identifying threats that are worth nearly killing yourself to get rid of, hoping that everyone else will stall long enough you can recover.

And MaRo's grammar also needs work.  "Multiplay" isn't good even for a pun.

As a final note, why did they pick the stupidest-looking card in all Archenemy as the symbol for multiplayer week?  I'd much rather have seen Mortal Flesh is Weak as the little icon in the article corner, if they were absolutely determined to have something that shows "the party".  Failing that, they could have just shown off some famous multiplayer card...like Congregate.  Or just do a symbol of a table with multiple players at it.  Anything but those goofy-ass costumes from Fate of the Flammable .  (Okay the guy on the top is almost cool, but the others...ugh.)
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As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing.
--Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2010 - 12:35AM #3
Legendary_Name
Date Joined: May 17, 2005
Posts: 1,209

Jul 18, 2010 -- 10:34PM, willpell wrote:

Divination is a bad example for the targeting thing because card draw is one of the effects you're less likely to want to share.  When you spend a card to draw two cards, you're essentially drawing one card for free; when you target someone else this way, you're sacrificing one card yourself to give them two completely free cards.  It's a major difference, and you'd have to be really good friends with the other person.




Mmmm, I dont know, I think it would still be better the way MaRo suggested. There are situations where that could be played as a finisher, such as in a Milling deck, or an Underworld Dreams deck (would be good for mine actually).

Maybe it should be:

Target Player Draws a card.
Target Player Draws a card.

That way you can divvy it up to how you want/need.

98% of people use statistics in their sigs, or have used them in the past. If you are one of the 2% that haven't or don't, place this into your signature.

New Magic Forums, Im'a let you finish, but the old Magic Forums were one of the greatest boards of all time!
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2010 - 12:49AM #4
Newbunkle
Date Joined: Oct 11, 2007
Posts: 1,965
Didn't we just have a multiplayer week? When's kitchen table week?
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2010 - 12:53AM #5
Grimnbo
Date Joined: Jun 13, 2010
Posts: 1
6R seems a bit too much for multi-Axe. Maybe something like 3RB, and at instant speed. Like Breath of Malfegor or something.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2010 - 1:24AM #6
Rosuav
Date Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 18
I have one small quibble, and a largeish comment about multiplayer and Planechase. I'll deal with the quibble first.

Mind Rot (multiplayer version)
All opponents discard two cards.

This ought to be "Each opponent", surely? (As you see, I'm a huge fan of templating. Whenever I come across an old card, I try to read out its Oracle text without referencing Gatherer.)

Okay, that got that out of the way. Now for the real stuff.

Planechase is great for its randomness, but one thing that Magic is great at is creating randomness and then giving players some control over it. Blue's really good at that - the Scry mechanic, just now added to a core set, being a perfect demonstration. At the cost of a little mana (Gatherer suggests that adding "Scry 2" costs 1 mana - see Fill with Fright , and Shock vs Magma Jet , and New Benalia vs basic Plains ), a planeswalker gets some measure of control over his/her own future.

The Eternities Map from today's feature article is one fancy way of doing this, but it works equally for all players. Here's a possibility that would allow a mage to prepare and gain the benefit of preparation. It also introduces the possibility of... the instant-speed planeswalk.

Urza's Escape Hatch
Artifact
Tap, Sacrifice Urza’s Escape Hatch: Planeswalk. (To planeswalk, insert reminder text here.)
3: Look at the top card of target player’s planar deck. You may put that card on the bottom of its owner’s deck. Any player may activate this ability, but only once per turn.

The second ability can be used in response to the planar die coming up "Planeswalk"; for an additional mana investment, you can have a small degree of control.

In playtesting, we've also considered an alternative second ability:

3: The next planar die roll this turn costs 0. Any player may activate this ability, but only once per turn.

Less control, but more politics. (That's what led to the card's invention, actually. I wanted a permanent with "Any player may activate this ability" on it.) This doesn't force the roll to be taken, it merely alters its mana cost. If a player lands on a universally unwanted plane but has no mana to move off, each other player can pay 3 to get another planeswalk attempt (and that's even if the controller of the Escape Hatch wants to stay here).

Of course, every mechanic has to have an answer. Making planeswalking easier and/or more powerful means that there needs to be a way to prevent it.

Deep Bond
Land
Tap: Add 1 to your mana pool.
Tap, Sacrifice Deep Bond: Prevent the next planeswalk that would happen this turn.

Yep. Lock you here. You ain't leaving the Lethe Lake till *I* say you are! This hasn't been overpowered in our playcircle as we don't have much land reanimation. However, if {Crucible of Worlds} comes up, this could be too powerful, so it might be necessary to exile Deep Bond rather than simply sacrifice it.

Unfortunately, Wizards is never going to print cards that have value only for casual formats. (Imagine seeing an Escape Hatch during a competitive Booster Draft - no thank you.) So these are forever going to be hand-done on proxies. Still, if anyone manages to put them to use, please let me know, I'd love to hear back!
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2010 - 3:55AM #7
willpell
Date Joined: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 4,833

Jul 19, 2010 -- 12:49AM, Newbunkle wrote:

Didn't we just have a multiplayer week? When's kitchen table week?




QFT.

Jul 19, 2010 -- 12:53AM, Grimnbo wrote:

6R seems a bit too much for multi-Axe. Maybe something like 3RB, and at instant speed. Like Breath of Malfegor or something.





If it's 5 mana for red-black, it has to be at *least* six mana for mono-red, but I think seven is more reasonable.  For one thing, if you're running two colors, it's possible for multiple opponents with land destruction to shut down one of your colors; a mono-color deck is almost impossible to screw out of mana entirely except with things like Armageddon or Sowing Salt (the latter only working on nonbasics, which monocolor decks are less likely to use anyway), so it's harder to stop a mono-red deck from eventually getting the mana to cast Multiple Lava Axes.  Additionally, more colors means more color-hosers and landwalkers will work on Malfegor-Boy, so he's open to a bit more retribution after he lets one rip.  I also suspect that Wizards has playtested Multi-Axe and come to the conclusion 5R is too good, for much the reasons I've cited.

Jul 19, 2010 -- 12:35AM, Legendary_Name wrote:


Mmmm, I dont know, I think it would still be better the way MaRo suggested. There are situations where that could be played as a finisher, such as in a Milling deck, or an Underworld Dreams deck (would be good for mine actually).




I'm pretty sure that the target-player version actually exists already, I just can't recall what it's called.  There's Inspiration , the instant-speed version for 4 mana, and there's Touch of Brilliance from portal...I used to remember all this stuff.

Target Player Draws a card.
Target Player Draws a card.




Ew!  I hope not; I hate that template.  I'd rather have "Up to two target players draw a total of two cards".  They couldn't use that for Seeds of Strength , but other templates are possible there; in this case the fact that it's thoroughly impossible to draw a fractional card makes this shortcut valid.

My New Phyrexia Writing Credits
My M12 Writing Credits

As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing.
--Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2010 - 4:16AM #8
ArmadilloKing
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Date Joined: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 351
Everyone who's complained about MaRo's complete lack of templating--now you know how the rest of Wizards feels.  Templating isn't Design's job, so MaRo really doesn't know or care exactly how cards would be worded on final pass.  It's up to whoever he passes the design file off to to try to make sense of the stuff he comes up with.

Also, is it just me, or did it feel like this one kind of went off the rails toward the end?  At the beginning, he started with very minor (or no) tweaks, but by the end of the article, he was 'improving' cards by completely replacing cards with completely different ones, which kind of defeats the point.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2010 - 4:43AM #9
Hacimen
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2006
Posts: 8,375

Jul 19, 2010 -- 12:49AM, Newbunkle wrote:

Didn't we just have a multiplayer week? When's kitchen table week?




I don't know, I kind of like having an entire week off from reading Magic articles. As it's the summer of multiplayer, we'll probaby have to go through another of these in the next month or so anyway.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2010 - 9:57AM #10
RecurringSearch
Date Joined: Oct 15, 2007
Posts: 273

I like these articles, please keep doing them.


Mark, I would love it if you ranked all of your articles with a "*" to "*****" rating regarding how helpful you think they'd be to designers.  Somehow, I managed to miss the Skeleton of Sets Design article.


I am VERY glad that I eventually saw it, but I did miss it.  That would have been heartbreaking.

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