|
3 years ago ::
May 14, 2010 - 1:26PM
#1
|
Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2008
|
This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
May 16, 2010 - 9:29PM
#2
|
Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2004
|
More vague, meandering hot air which doesn't actually communicate anything. Get this through your head, MaRo: Design is NOT all the same, and design principles for lamps and clocks do NOT apply to Magic cards. The word "Design" doesn't even mean the same thing for a piece of machinery as it does for a game card. Stop talking about things that aren't Magic just because you think they're cool.
My New Phyrexia Writing CreditsMy M12 Writing CreditsAs far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing.
--Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi 
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
May 16, 2010 - 9:41PM
#3
|
Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2004
|
No, design of clocks and strategy games are different, but Rams' principles are something valuable to think about.
Two weeks ago I was inspired by the first half of this article and Rams' principles. I sat down with a major software package in my industry, fired up Photoshop and mocked up a redesign of its user interface based on modern HCI practices. I think today I'm going to do the same thing for one or two of its competitors and submit the whole process as a talk at a conference. So I found the article very valuable.
Magic is only one part of my life, and occasionally I like to read articles on this website and other Magic sites that talk about how Magic fits into the bigger picture. They aren't unrelated to Magic entirely, because, if you actually read Mark's articles and process them, these outside things do find their way into the game in an indirect way.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
May 16, 2010 - 11:34PM
#4
|
Date Joined:
Sep 15, 2005
|
Much better images, kudos. Maro is getting better at weaving previous articles into the one at hand. Durability- There have been many changes to Magic. There was a time (let's call it pre-Invasion) when Magic expansion sets were a mixture of new and old ideas. As time has progressed, that aspect has dwindled. Contemporary sets are about X matters, which was exciting, the first few times. Unfortunately the "pendulum" isn't swinging back. It faltered at Time Spiral and then lept forward at Future Sight. My fear, is that this pendulum will break, if it hasn't already. The subtlty is gone. The homages are lost. I would be interested in seeing more "Magic matters" sets, and less "sharkjumpery" ... Little as possible- Futurama morals aside, Planeswalkers told me the Design Staff was innovative, Level-up told me that nothing is conceivably sacred. Change the card face layout. Why not? Add another counter type. We needed more. Add some boxes. Sure. Just curious as to where the line is/will be. I often hear there is 'a line', about what can and can't be done, though it's seldom explained and recently seemingly ignored. As an interesting challenge, find new uses for old cards. Make some of the bad cards of the past matter? Make Gray Ogre  matter. Make tide counters matter. Make Deadfall  main deckable. ( Lumbering Satyr  is not a deck)
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
May 17, 2010 - 1:45AM
#5
|
Date Joined:
Oct 15, 2007
|
"Why did it bother me so much? Because, I answered, it was my most beloved childhood item." WOW. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
May 17, 2010 - 2:29AM
#6
|
Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2006
|
Much better images, kudos.
Maro is getting better at weaving previous articles into the one at hand.
Durability- There have been many changes to Magic. There was a time (let's call it pre-Invasion) when Magic expansion sets were a mixture of new and old ideas. As time has progressed, that aspect has dwindled. Contemporary sets are about X matters, which was exciting, the first few times. Unfortunately the "pendulum" isn't swinging back. It faltered at Time Spiral and then lept forward at Future Sight. My fear, is that this pendulum will break, if it hasn't already. The subtlty is gone. The homages are lost. I would be interested in seeing more "Magic matters" sets, and less "sharkjumpery" ...
Little as possible- Futurama morals aside, Planeswalkers told me the Design Staff was innovative, Level-up told me that nothing is conceivably sacred. Change the card face layout. Why not? Add another counter type. We needed more. Add some boxes. Sure. Just curious as to where the line is/will be. I often hear there is 'a line', about what can and can't be done, though it's seldom explained and recently seemingly ignored.
As an interesting challenge, find new uses for old cards. Make some of the bad cards of the past matter? Make Gray Ogre matter. Make tide counters matter. Make Deadfall main deckable. ( Lumbering Satyr is not a deck)
Whoa there. Trust me when I say that we do not want part in any kind of format where deadfall  is main deckable. Do you realize what has to happen to make that possible. I hear you on the first two points of your post but there are some cards that we just have to accept will always be bad. barring a few cards like "lark" goblin roughrider  will always be better than grey ogre  . Still there are some possibilities out there for vanilla creatures like muraganda petroglyphs  . I think that more can be done with that theme but you can't make a format where "forestwalk" matters more than 1 in 5 games (if that). I don't think you know what you're asking there.
As far as how he has related Rams' principals to MtG I don't really have a problem with that. I understand how different the two kinds of design are and how thin the thread is linking them but I think Mark just used these words as a jumping off point for his critical thinking about Magic rather than trying to design MtG from a "lamps" point of view.
Don't be too smart to have fun
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
May 17, 2010 - 3:06AM
#7
|
|
|
From Part 1:
In recent years, Magic has made a tremendous shift from Disposability to Durability. Years ago, MaRo would exclaim all the time that Magic's design space was HUGE. Lately, he exclaims all the time it is very, very limited, and they constantly bring back mechanics to use them to the fullest.
Hmm, I'm glad I'm not the only one that's noticed that change in his messaging. I wonder what kind of realization they had to make him change that.
Without attempting to research when this tone shift occurred, I'd say it was Future Sight design. They sat down to gather up all these new, divergent, inconceivably fun mechanics and realized how many of them were just mechanical evolutions. That's why they launced the GDS (in which many contestands offered the same evolutions). And when they realized they better start protecting and reusing.
Now I know Mark is reading this and at some point he's going to respond to us saying "Magic's design space is huge, but it's also finite. They're both true!" Well we're not falling for it Maro, uh-uh. And I dare you to quote me. Nanny nanny boo boo.
From this article:
Thirdly (I hope that's a word), design has to always be conscious of resources. While there is a large amount of design space, it is finite.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
May 17, 2010 - 4:56AM
#8
|
Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2008
|
(Please understand that this is a nails-on-chalkboard thing for me.)
Things like your blanket do not come to a "grizzly" end. That would mean they turned into a bear. They may come to a "grisly" end, meaning that contemplating its fate caused you to feel horror. I suppose if you have an unreasonable fear of bears, you could use the two words interchangeably, but then you'd have to explain why Smokey or Yogi fills you with panic.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
May 17, 2010 - 5:53AM
#9
|
Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2009
|
I loathed the first of these two articles. I really liked this one.
I'm not sure why. I think it's because he talked about creative writing -- something I do, and like, and feel I understand -- rather than about Apple products, which I rather feel are taking over the world.
It's an interesting thing to realize about myself how much difference that made.
Also, is anyone else surprised by the "serial killer having breakfast" thing? I'd imagine it would be far easier to write about the serial killer than the college student. When I write, I write precisely because I want to think about something larger-than-life (probably why I love sci-fi and fantasy and am bored to tears by Ordinary Stories About Ordinary People.) Regular people are nothing special. Strange people, strange circumstances, epic situations... that's the stuff I want to both read and write about.
|
|
|
|
3 years ago ::
May 17, 2010 - 6:46AM
#10
|
Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2006
|
Every good engineer knows: Good design is not finished when you add as much as you can to it. It is finished when you remove as much as you can.
or
"LESS IS MORE"
|
|
|
