Why is this? The reason is that Combo decks have cards with specialized functions. There will likely be cards that feed the combo's engine (Dark Ritual et al), cards focused on increasing card quality or card advantage (Brainstorm et al), cards that protect the combo (Duress et al), and cards that kill your opponent (Tendrils of Agony et al). A combo deck will often need some critical mass of spells or permanents in play to "go off," so early discard can critically hamper a combo deck by removing the ability of that deck to reach that critical mass. I know that Enchantress decks need to hit a critical mass of enchantments in play, and it really doesn't function well if you remove an Argothian Enchantress or Enchantress' Presence.
There is a problem with 1-for-1 discard spells in multiplayer, I realize. Namely, that they are a lot less powerful given the scope of players and their associated cards in hand. So just run global or repeatable discard.
The cool thing about this is that discard is also fantastic against Control decks, so its not like discard is useless if no one is playing Combo.
capitan_estaban mentioned a bit about ganging up on the boogeyman deck (like Enchantress), which would discourage a player from playing something overly powerful compared to the other decks. Have you guys tried this?
Bottom line is that you should be considering universal answers instead of niche ones.
But if every deck I play would have mass enchantment sweeping, I would be pretty gimped in my deck building options and thus in my creativity.
You argue that decks that force you to build around them are stifling your creativity, but I'd opine that they are actually fostering creativity by forcing you to expand beyond the limited scope of cards and strategies you once used.
In fact, isn't every opponent you play against forcing you to play certain sets of cards? Will you not begin to use removal spells when you discover that you need to be able to kill a pesky creature to actually have a fighting chance in a matchup? Would you not add discard so that a combo deck doesn't just steamroll you in the first few turns of the game? Would you not hasten your deck's clock so that you can kill that opponent before he drops some titanic creature that would void your entire game plan?
Do any of these changes not improve your deck overall, or are they indeed choke-holds that impede creativity and deckbuilding freedom?
Don't assume I have read any response you might have made directed toward me in a thread or post. The best method to contact me is Private Message as I will always check there upon logging on
Discard is nine out of ten times black. How is that not a niche?
But let us broaden the scope of what a deck needs to be able to handle beyond just enchantress. What will you surely encounter often enough?
Big creatures, many creatures,some artifacts and enchantments everybody encounters. In my meta I also need to be able to handle lands (Emeria, the sky ruin mainly) and graveyard recursion. Some lifegain is necessary because burn decks see play and one of my friends has an unhealthy love realationship with his mill kill deck.
So nearly all my decks need: Instant speed creature spot removal Creature mass removal Artifact & enchantment removal Land destruction Opponents graveyard removal Own graveyard reshuffle (preferably searchable or mill proof). Lifegain
That is 7 things so even if I cover that with 2 cards each (which is ok for some, but not near enough for others) I loose 14 cards a deck. And the options are limited so decks tend to look the same if you aren't creative enough. If you don't play some of these, you are severely gimped in some matchups.
It is most noticable in mono black decks (which a lot of players in my playgroups have). Nearly all of them play Unmake to exile creatures against recursion tricks. Not very creative if you ask me.
More and more card slots and mandatory answers will be needed if people do play combo decks. Which gimps creativity.
To answer your statement "You argue that decks that force you to build around them are stifling your creativity, but I'd opine that they are actually fostering creativity by forcing you to expand beyond the limited scope of cards and strategies you once used." If every deck needs to play answers to everything else, you are limited to certain card choices. If you needn't (or simply don't care about) have an answer to all your opponents their decks you can build more different decks which is more creativity!
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
Discard is nine out of ten times black. How is that not a niche?(True enough. Their are few exceptions. Some in Wheel and Deal / Windfall , some in Burning Inquiry , a couple of colorless answers Uba Mask , Muse Vessel . I wouldn't say that all of my answers to the Enchantress deck are dead cards, I was just trying to list some cards that weren't mass enchantment destruction that you could use. Probably only one card on the list wasn't a niche card... Aura of Silence is an Multiplayer Hall of Fame card, because it is almost never a dead card. It slows your opponents, and threatens disenchant. Disenchant is also rarely a dead card. The most powerful Multiplayer cards are Enchantments and Artifacts, partially because they aren't creatures and can have some powerful effects.)
But let us broaden the scope of what a deck needs to be able to handle beyond just enchantress. What will you surely encounter often enough?
Big creatures, many creatures,some artifacts and enchantments everybody encounters. In my meta I also need to be able to handle lands (Emeria, the sky ruin mainly)(graveyard recursion takes care of Emeria, so you don't need both) and graveyard recursion. Some lifegain is necessary because burn decks see play (well, they burn decks should be playing Sulfuric Vortex to make your lifegain dead cards) and one of my friends has an unhealthy love realationship with his mill kill deck (mill rarely wins MP games, but if multiple opponents are running it, a singleton Gaea's Embrace will make the reconsider targeting you).
So nearly all my decks need: Instant speed creature spot removal (not necessarily for every deck, but this is usually helpful) Creature mass removal (sweepers are good, if your playing mono this might not be an option) Artifact & enchantment removal (removal is much more difficult, but destruction is fairly easy for everyone except :r Land destruction (not usually. Lands aren't usually a problem. Glacial Chasm , Volrath's Storonghold , and a handful of other are difficult to deal with, but I wouldn't run LD in every deck) Opponents graveyard removal (Torment, Judgement, and Odyssey made the graveyard an important resource, and later sets didn't make it any easier. Not all my decks run graveyard removal, but if everyone started to use their graveyard as a resource 4xRelic of Progenitus might start creaping into my decks). Own graveyard reshuffle (preferably searchable or mill proof). (Gaea's Blessing , you don't even need to cast it. I have rarely been milled out of a game, or a game lasted so long that it was necessary to run a Thran Foundry (usually better than Feldon's Cane, since it also screws over graveyard shenanigans). A singleton might be worth it in some decks, but usually this isn't necessary) Lifegain (it usually doesn't hurt, but not all of my MP decks run lifegain)
That is 7 things so even if I cover that with 2 cards each (which is ok for some, but not near enough for others) I loose 14 cards a deck. And the options are limited so decks tend to look the same if you aren't creative enough. If you don't play some of these, you are severely gimped in some matchups. (I usually run 4xsweep effects, 4xArtifact&Enchantment hate, everything else is negotiable)
It is most noticable in mono black decks (which a lot of players in my playgroups have). Nearly all of them play Unmake to exile creatures against recursion tricks (why not just recur the creatures themselves? They are playing black). Not very creative if you ask me.
More and more card slots and mandatory answers will be needed if people do play combo decks. Which gimps creativity. (if everyone plays combo decks, then control becomes that much more viable. You should run discard. If combo isn't rampant, then Midrange Aggro/Combo Aggro should be able to beatdown.
To answer your statement "You argue that decks that force you to build around them are stifling your creativity, but I'd opine that they are actually fostering creativity by forcing you to expand beyond the limited scope of cards and strategies you once used." If every deck needs to play answers to everything else, you are limited to certain card choices. If you needn't (or simply don't care about) have an answer to all your opponents their decks you can build more different decks which is more creativity!(Not all decks need answers to all other decks. You only need answers to the kinds of decks that will destroy yours. An elf deck needs Caller of the Claw to deal with sweepers, A Rebel deck needs to counter Armageddon , etc. Worrying about everything that could happen is a mistake, you should only worry about what is most likely to happen
Budget EDH:EDH on $20 a Deck. Join the Group Link has been defeated(X times) by Eyegorc in Dungeons 2(2x), 3(3x), and 6(3x).
You make good points Capitan. Especially your last sentence: Worrying about everything that could happen is a mistake, you should only worry about what is most likely to happen.
I am a bit of a control freak (but I dislike the colour blue, weird aint it) and because of that I always try to have an answer to everything in my decks.
You said so yourself, you play 4xsweep effects, 4xArtifact&Enchantment hate, everything else is negotiable. For me it is more like 4x instant speed creature spot removal (exile or destroy doesn't matter, I call both removal), 2x sweeper, 2x artifact and enchantment hate, 3x lifegain, 2x graveyard recursion (which usually doubles as opponents graveyard hate) and all else is negotiable. Too bad that the best cards fitting those slots are limited. The best cards fit multiple criteria at once (like Primal Command , Austere Command , Mortify , Bant Charm , Sapseep Forest , Mistveil Plains , etc ,etc). I especially like lands that fit the criteria because I usually play 24 lands and having a enters the battlefield tapped land is a small price to pay to have lifegain or recursion. Unfortunately, the number of cards that fit multiple of these criteria is limited. I try to see that as a challenge, finding creative ways of still covering all your bases but within my many playgroups I encounter the same cards over and over again because they are so good at what they do. Pretty much all decks that play red, black and blue play Cruel Ultimatum (the exception being a fast burn deck we call the jackpot deck, because of ping ping ping ping), nearly all white playing decks play path or Plow , nearly all blue decks play Evacuation , etc ,etc.
About the mono black decks: I play Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni for exactly that reason in my mono black deck and in my Teneb deck I specifically do NOT play exiling effects (like path and Plow ) because I abuse my opponents strong creatures with Teneb , Crime , Beacon and I like the opponents their creatures with my Avatar .
My most recent deck is that Teneb deck and I tried very hard to not play cards that everyone else was already playing. In some areas I failed a bit (I play Angel of Despair and so do 2 other people in their white/black deck) but all cards I play in that deck (skipping basic lands) either see no play by other players from my many playgroups, or only very limited play. I tried very hard to be creative and the deck has become great fun to play because of that.
For me it is becoming increasingly hard to make a deck that is totally original, which employs a tactic that hasn't been used yet or that uses cards that no one thought of before. Chances are high that if I think of a deck, any one of the 20 other people I play with has had that same idea and builds the deck and I dislike having the same deck as my friends because it makes for less variation in gameplay. And that is another reason why I dislike combo decks and they are pretty much banned in my playgroups. If a new deck idea I have can't handle a combo deck, I would never build it if combo decks were played. Most of my decks can't handle a decent combo deck because they don't have to If I had to change them to make them able to handle a decent combo deck, they would become more similar and games would become less varied and less fun.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
And that is another reason why I dislike combo decks and they are pretty much banned in my playgroups. If a new deck idea I have can't handle a combo deck, I would never build it if combo decks were played. Most of my decks can't handle a decent combo deck because they don't have to If I had to change them to make them able to handle a decent combo deck, they would become more similar and games would become less varied and less fun.
A reasonable point, but... if you had combo decks as additional options for what to build, wouldn't that give you more variety? After all, unusual combinations of cards are more unique than any way to mix and match regular creatures and control cards.
Most combos rely upon at least one creature, artifact, or enchantment anyway, so the same spot removal you use to take care of that Coat of Arms will also shut down your opponent's Cloudstone Curio . Beyond that, all you really have to worry about is the combo deck's power level, and that's true of any scary deck.
I'm a bit of a Timmy/Johnny myself. But, I understand wanting to have an answer for everything in your deck. It sucks when its down to you and a single opponent, and you don't have answer to what ever nonsense they are about to pull. I try to pack answers, but realize that it isn't likely to be possible with a 60 card deck, ~24 land so I don't get mana screwed, instant targeted artifact/enchantment/creature removal, board sweepers and other resets, a win condition, a backup or tutors, graveyard recursion, ....
Its true that the best cards that fit into certain roles aren't very long. If I am facing/building a deck, I would expect that the Artifact/Enchantment hate that would be in the deck to be either Orim's Thunder , Aura of Silence , Austere Command , Akroma's Vengeance , and maybe a handful of other cards. Does it bother me that I see the some of the same cards over and over again..., not really. I expect people to use the best cards, so when I see them played I am not surprised. It is true that it is difficult to build completely original ideas, but I am always on the lookout for interesting cards that are unusual and can be built around, or that can be used in new and interesting ways. I had a Thrashing Wumpus +Spirit Loop deck (not that original), but I splashed Equal Treatment because Banefire was starting to run rampant in the group and everyone that that it was completely unbeatable. I was lucky enough to prevent lethal damage from a Banefire one game, and double the damage for each another turn.
I like you, don't like to tread the same path that other have already. If someone has already built a deck, I rarely build a similar one (the Johnny in me I guess). Your group doesn't like combo, mine doesn't like lockdown (although we haven't techically banned it). If I have a new deck, I don't let its ability to stop combo prevent me from building it. But, as fractal points out there aren't many combo decks that don't have weak points that most MP decks should be able to handle (and combo is easy to spot) so you can usually gang up and kill them before they go off. It might just be that my group doesn't see the same combo's that you do. Our group has seen the following combos... Lava Spike +Desperate Ritual +Izzet Guildmage - This combo needs at least 6 mana to go off, or 8 if you want to cast Izzet the same turn. Izzet dies spot creature removal. If even one person has spot removal, they can wait until both copies are on the stack and then burn Izzet so that the combo is broken (if they have 9 mana, you/two players need removal) Treetop Village +Umbral Mantle +Overgrowth - More instant speed creature removal, or disenchant or art/ench sweepers, makes this arbitrarily large trampler not a big issue. Earthcraft +Squirrel Nest - Earthcraft +Squirrel Nest +Fertile Ground - Infinite tokens, infinite mana with Capsize . This combo can be seen a mile a way, and dies to disenchant or other instant speed art/ench hate, sometimes art/ench sweepers depending upon if they want to drop the combo pieces over several turns. Apocalypse +Suspend - Lockdown deck, so technically not combo. Oath of Druids +Kokusho, the Evening Star - Blazing Archon and other cards for support, including Forbidden Orchard +Defense of the Heart - Disenchant effect needed for the important pieces, board sweepers and creature exile is nice. Tidewater Minion +Signet/Bounce land Pauper combo - Infinite or mana with replicate/buyback finisher. Creature removal destroys this. ... Will Edit Later...
Budget EDH:EDH on $20 a Deck. Join the Group Link has been defeated(X times) by Eyegorc in Dungeons 2(2x), 3(3x), and 6(3x).
I think moreso than hating out decks, the most important thing you need to do is play a competitive deck yourself. A lot of people are under the impression that multiplayer magic is altogether different from duels. That is not true. If you go to a FNM with some slow, weird, fun deck, then Jund is going to beat you 99.99% of the time. If all you do is bring slow, weird, fun decks to multiplayer, then competitive multiplayer decks are going to roll you over every time. Sure, you might be able hate out one or two decks after a few weeks, but that's not going to win you the game in the end.
If the average clock in your games is 10 turns, then your deck also better be able to win in 10 turns. If locks or combos or whatever hit on turn 6, then your deck better be doing the same. If not, you better have a VERY solid plan to delay the game until you're ready to go off yourself. Not some random hate, some real hard protection. You can't solve your problems by throwing in Disenchant , you have to play back at them by racing them just as fast as they race you. I just feel like too many people fail to realize that you have to stay competitive, no matter what format you use. Just because multiplayer is slower, doesn't mean it isn't competitive.
My guide to Black multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/18893722?sdb=1&post_num=1#322195706
My guide to Red multiplayer cards and strategies: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28999213/?sdb=1&post_num=1#517562879
My guide to White multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29011349/?sdb=1&pg=last#517773211
My guide to Green multiplayer cards and strategies http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29034323/Tichs_Guide_to_Green_Multiplayer_Cards_and_Strategies
Playing a competitive deck is mandatory if you want to win. Most of the decks I have are truly competitive (my Coinflip deck isn't, that is just fun) and I play with them nearly all the time. Because of this I win my fair share of games.
But not all competitive multiplayer decks can handle combo decks because when building a combo deck you know you are going to face people who don't want you to win so you play cards to prevent them from not comboing out. Cards like Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir prevent meddling from you opponents on the turn you combo out. Dropping him in the end of turn step of the person before you is one of those tricks. A good deck can consistently drop him after his turn 5 (so just before turn 6) and combo out on turn 6. And surviving until then isn't impossible either.
In a tournament I know I can expect combo decks against me so I either run faster than they do or I annoy the hell out of them (for example: I have beaten 2 land belcher, high tide and nethervoid decks with my elf deck by first being faster and after sideboarding in Sphere of Resistance , Thorn of Amerthyst and/or Winter Orb I ruined their game plan all together).
In a duel I have just that one opponent to fight but in multiplayer, people get scared if you kick someone out of the game by turn 4 or 5. They fear that the swing you have laying on the table is going to come their way and so they fight you too. So outracing the combo deck only works if enough people on the table try to do the same and you don't hinder each other too much. Ganging up like that is (from a sportsmanship perspective of not kicking someone out of the game and letting them sit at the sidelines for an hour) frowned upon in some of my playgroups. That is why combo decks don't see play in that playgroup, we didn't outright ban them, we simply all find it unfun.
In another playgroup of mine, combo decks do see play (from Dream Halls to cascade into living end and onwards). But there people have no problems with focussing the full might of the table against the combo player, kicking him out and then deciding the rest of the game between the rest of us. The net result is the same, combo decks hardly see play. They aren't banned outright but few people play them because the chance of winning is slim and the chance of sitting on the sidelines is high. However, in that playgroup we do play a lot faster and more competitively so it also makes the wait if you do get kicked out quit a bit shorter.
That is why combo decks are mildly banned in some of my playgroups. I don't play them because I don't like them. They are a "play at your own risk" kind of thing and in some playgroups some people don't want to play anymore with players who play insta win combo decks. Partly because of that I have multiple playgroups while we all live within 15 minutes driving of each other. I play with all of them (often on friday night with one group and on saterday night with another).
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
I'm sure there is a better method to level the playing field without actually stifling creativity.
In tournaments there is one thing that helps a lot against combo decks. It is the sideboard. In our multiplayer sessions we switch decks nearly all the time so sideboarding is kind of pointless.
One of the players had an enchantress deck that was legacy quality and he sometimes played it in multiplayer. The only way that deck wouldn't win was by using mass enchantment sweepers. But if every deck I play would have mass enchantment sweeping, I would be pretty gimped in my deck building options and thus in my creativity.
This is just one deck that caused problems. If you know that there once were many more decks like that played by the same guy and others (and they all had but one true weakness, many of them were top legacy decks mildly adapted to multiplayer). You will understand that we as a playgroup kind off banned decks like that because it stimulates creativity and fun.
Introducing other formats has failed a bit in most of my playgroups until I entered a new one in which they already played EDH. Now I have that playgroup with EDH and I am working on getting the other playgroups excited for EDH too.
A little late and I'll probably edit for other things but Astral Slide + Aura Shards is rediculous or any other phasing creatures.
Something I've come to realize in regards to the competitive decks is that Wizards is releasing things that are just too good and easy to see/make when used in combo i.e. Vampires right now. I've got an exalted deck that wipes the floor with most people but vampires just destroys it with all of the removal, saccing and other combo-ish goodness. I was thinking about making a Vampire deck but 2 people in my group already have them and I don't think it is very creative to be able to slap a precon or two together, add a few cards, and have a deck that is good enough to stifle other decks in both single and multiplayer formats with little to no deck changes.
this might not be an option)
:r
