Sencond, which was the point of your thread. We don't have people who quit in responce to going to lose or take damage in multi, because they know that the group would lynch them. It's very poor sportsmanship and in the off chance that someone would, we would simply resove whatever effect just to spite them.
We regard conceding strategically as poor sportsmanship as well. When someone tries to do it (happens occasionally, though not often), we lay on the peer pressure, and usually they change their mind.
On a related note, we usually frown on play not within the context of a single game; for example, bearing a grudge from game to game. Spend all of your burn or removal on the player killing you, but don't automatically target them next game.
I think concession is something that should be handled socially rather than by the rules... "You're free to quit the game, but we're going to arbitrate the consequences of that concession to minimalize the impact on the game we're all still playing.". Concession is a necessary evil for those who have to leave the game for unforseen circumstances, not an offensive tool. I'd say player A gives you a turn, the lifelink gains you life, the Hippie returns to play. The player conceded and has lost their say in what goes on in the game, so let's take to fun of the remaining players into account.
I would say that most of these solutions are how I think it should be handled. You are absolutely correct that the rules probably aren't the best place to handle this. Usually when a player concedes leaving another player open, the open player is given a chance to untap before they are attacked (since their meat shield is gone). I think as you do, that a life linked creature should gain life as if the opponent was still there (other opponents are welcome to Terror / Doom Blade / etc. to mess with combat that they aren't involved with of course). As for the last one, we have been incorrectly playing situations like this for quite a while (returning the opponent's ORinged permanent to play, when Oblivion Ring 's controller is removed from the game...We should have kept that permanent exiled). ORing, Astral Slide, Parallax Wave , Otherworldly Journey are all better than I thought they where when you play with the correct rules. I am personally fine with the Hippie staying removed from the game. I just treat this in a similar vein as Lightning Bolt ing someone for killing you with combat damage (to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee).
First of all, only being able to attack left or adjacent is the worst way to play. At that point you're not playing multi, you're playing one on one or two on one and if your deck is multiplayer oriented, it's now screwed for the most part.
Second, which was the point of your thread. We don't have people who quit in responce to going to lose or take damage in multi, because they know that the group would lynch them. It's very poor sportsmanship and in the off chance that someone would, we would simply resolve whatever effect just to spite them.
I am going to have to disagree with you here. You are still playing Multiplayer, and you still have opponents that might be within your spell range that you just can't use creature combat to attack. We usually play 5 player, spell range of 2, attack adjacent. Would you argue that Star format is the worst way to play Multiplayer since you can only attack two opponents, although your spells can still target all 4 other players? Attack Adjacent makes combat math easier since you only have worry about attacks from two players. It allows people to attack more aggressively since they can only have to survive 2 combat phases. Sure, this makes combo and control probably a little stronger in this variation, but it also allows aggro players to use Hunted Horror / Forbidden Orchard / Varchild's War-Riders (giving the tokens to an opponent that is seated across the table from you) to place more threats on the board than they can likely deal with quickly enough. You still have to build a well designed MP deck, just different cards are likely to be better in the variant than FFA.
Our group's house rule is: Players may concede only as a sorcery.
While of course nothing really stops players from conceding at any time, the house rule is generally accepted as the best way to solve problems like the ones you raise.
Plus everyone in the group agrees that it's incredibly unsatisfying to swing for the kill and have someone resign in response.
Conceding as a sorcery does handle at least one of the problems. Although it is unlikely, a player in Player A's situation would concede on their turn after being assaulted by Player D for a considerable amount of damage. They might do this because they believe that Player B's large army is enough to eliminate them and still allow B to have significant defense from D when D untaps. By conceding though, Player B is now free to attack Player D. This isn't a problem in FFA magic of course, and as mentioned to Scumbling the easy solution is to give Player D a turn to untap (since they weren't counting on a player conceding). Thanks for all the responses. Overall, I agree that it should be considered poor sportsmanship to concede a game to strategically hurt another players chances. If players understand that this is unacceptable, and the game will continue in such a way as to make their concession not have any unintended consequences, I think that should solve the problem.
I have nothing against someone conceding if they don't think that they can win (although I personally wouldn't). Example...a player playing an all red deck with a Story Circle and Chill in play, and they don't have an answer in their deck. I would hold out, burning other players to encourage them to disenchant the obstacles to my deck, but I can understand a player deciding to concede because they don't think they have a chance and would prefer to jump into another game at a different table (our group usually has 7-12 players and we usually split up into multiple tables).
Budget EDH:EDH on $20 a Deck. Join the Group Link has been defeated(X times) by Eyegorc in Dungeons 2(2x), 3(3x), and 6(3x).
Was playing a draft lastnight. The guy started putting his cards up, he had me beat and was saying, "so that's game." My reply was, "well you have to attack me first."
Was playing a draft lastnight. The guy started putting his cards up, he had me beat and was saying, "so that's game." My reply was, "well you have to attack me first."
If you wanted to be a jerk, that could technically be interpreted as that fellow conceding to you IIRC.
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite. "I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room." It's my sig in a boxShow
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul:
Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay."
I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board.
Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other BarryShow
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic , giving you time to set up your silly combo . Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster...
Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil.
And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
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...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right?
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players.
And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it.
He/It got me with Light of Sanction , which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad , things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed .
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
I agree that conceding is difficult to handle within the rules because you are quitting the game (so why would you bother with the game rules?).
I find it bad sportsmanship to concede before truly dying and I always hang in there even if I have no chance of winning anymore (because I can still annoy my opponents or get real lucky). However, not all the players I play with are truly good sports. Some are sore losers and I have seen people scoop turn 4 on 20 life with no immediate threats on the table because he ate a second Counterspell (and he didn't have to go or do something important, next game he played again).
I have 3 playgroups and it differs very much. One playgroup only has people that handle defeat gracefully, one playgroup has but a single person who sometimes is a sore loser (especially when he is tired or something) and one group has a couple of them. When I play with the group that has a couple of sore losers I don't play more politically, I just make sure I still have fun and I don't let them get to me (eventhough sometimes I went home more annoyed than relaxed because I just had the worst evening, funwise, in my magic career).
It may be difficult but if you are suffering from problems with people conceding just to screw over one player. I would suggest discussing it with those players. I know my other magic players well enough to know with whom I can discuss this seriously and with whom it would be pointless because they are jerks. If your other players are jerks, you can try not to get upset about it and still enjoy the game or find other players.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
On a related note, we usually frown on play not within the context of a single game; for example, bearing a grudge from game to game. Spend all of your burn or removal on the player killing you, but don't automatically target them next game.
This is what happens in my playgroup all the time. If I alpha strike one person, effectively killing them, then the next game they will devote all of their resources towards killing me. A part of this is due to knowing what decks my opponents are playing. If anyone is playing a combo deck that is an automatic win if they get it going, I am going to attack and kill that player before then. They will then, as always, say that I targeted them based on my "fear" of what that deck "might" do. But this is just my rant on that particular topic.
As for conceding, I will admit that I made a tactical concession at least once, and it was very memorable because it was a situation like what I wrote above. Because I killed off one player, that same player decided to kill me off as quickly as possible in the next game, even though I wasn't threatening that player at all. Ultimately, he was going to kill me, but another player decided to get in on the action and attacked me with everything. I would have lived if I just took that attack, but I would have died next turn from the guy that actually wants to kill me. So, I made every sacrifice to kill off all of the creatures that the "uninvolved" guy just threw at me, basically ruining his game. I then allowed the player that wanted to kill me to do so, but I quit right before, just so he would have to tap his creatures. Finally, that player who wanted to kill me won the entire game. Simply because his end goal was to kill me, he got a very fast, very powerful deck. And seeing as how it was a multiplayer game, he wanted to win, then, the next game, everybody had a grudge against him.
The point of all of this is to explain the "grudge" factor. Others call it "eye for an eye," but it is simple revenge. And the thing about getting even is that it is all relative. The cycle of revenge will never end; it can only become inflated with more and more powerful decks. Ultimately, everyone has their best decks out and wants to kill everybody just to prove a point, not to just play magic anymore. Then, people who cannot compete with those decks just up and quit because it isn't fun being beaten again and again by, as I would call them, blind animals. If this happens, that is something that would make me concede right off the bat.
HOW TO AUTOCARD! When posting in a text box, type [c]Plains[/c] to make your post showPlains . Are you making a casual mill deck? Please read.Show
Control is the key of a mill deck. You should free up your mana as much as possible so that you can respond to whatever your opponent is doing. Having some way to remove threats, both real and percieved, is necessary to survival. Real threats are those that are already on the field, and are something a simple unsummon or doom blade can remove. Percieved threats are those that aren't on the field, something a simple duress or counterspell can deal with. Controlling the board will allow your mill deck to continuously perform, if you use permanent style mill, that is.
One-Shot Mill spells are something you should avoid. You can toss tome scour s at your opponent until your hand runs out, but that isn't going to be enough to mill them to death. With 1-shot mill spells, like tome scour , you have to treat them like burn spells. Therefore, the only "good" 1-shot mill spells are sanity grinding (in the right deck) and mind funeral . Try to find more permanent styles of milling, like memory erosion , hedron crab , and curse of the bloody tome , so that you don't have to waste your mana each turn doing something that those permanents can do with a single mana/turn investment. Keeping your mana open allows you to respond with control elements.
Traumatize Rant. Traumatize is a terrible card for a multitude of reasons. First, it costs 5 to cast, which is a large investment for a mill deck. Milling half a library sounds neat, but if you do the math, it really isn't that much. An average 60 card deck starts with drawing 7 cards. Then, barring any draw spells on their end, or ramp on yours, 5 turns will go by, where they draw 5 more cards, leaving 48 in the deck. Unless they had a deck with more than 60 cards, or you ramped it out, the most you'll ever mill with a single Traumatize on turn 5 is 24 cards. That's not too shabby, but hang on, there's more! If they drew any additional cards or if they were milled before turn 5, that number will be much lower. In addition, any more Traumatize's you draw will only mill less and less as the game goes on...which is the point of a mill deck. My whole point on Traumatize is the it is NOT worth the 5 mana investment, not even with haunting echoes . You can mill more than 24 before turn 5...which you can then cast the echoes.
If you look at a mill deck like a burn deck, you'll notice that it takes longer to win with mill than with burn. For example, lightning bolt costs 1 and does 3 out of the 20 damage needed to win (barring any lifegain or damage prevention). For mill, that same investment of 1 would have to mill 9 cards out of an average 60 card deck to be the equivilent of lightning bolt . The problem is that there is no mill card that can do that...except hedron crab , over a period of time. The initial investment of 1 will pay off in 3 more land drops to make the crab equal to a bolt. However, the crab nets you more mill beyond those 3 land drops, making it better as the game draws on. Other cards, like curse of the bloody tome , are excellent ways of milling an opponent because the initial investment of is all you have to pay in order to put your opponent on a clock. All you have to do is stay alive, which is the true goal of a mill strategy.
There are other ideas for mill decks that are specific to certain types of strategies. Combo mill decks can mill an entire player's library out from under them. Secondary mill strategies are usually tied to another strategy, like drowner of secrets in a merfolk deck, or halimar excavator in an ally deck. Milling can be done in certain decks that are able to ramp out enough mana to make use of the higher costing mill spells, like using 16 x post to pay for X on sands of delirium or for ambassador laquatus . Multiplayer mill decks are even tougher to build, but can be done. Being a slower environment[/c], it is easier to ramp in multiplayer, allowing for big X spells, like mind grind , to be useful. Consuming aberration is another star player. The more straightforward strategy is to use mesmeric orb and dreamborn muse while being the only deck at the table that can deal with it . There are always new strategies coming out with each new set, so check gatherer for any new mill cards that you find to be the most fun for you!
Now you can say that you haven't fallen into the trap that most new players fall into when they build their first mill deck!
: Order, Law, Faith. : Knowledge, Artifice, Control. : Corruption, Death, Self-Interest. : Freedom, Destruction, Victory. : Nature, Growth, Life. : Progressive, but too controlling. : Focused, but short sighted. : Skilled, but hypocritical. : Unified, but without a sense of self. : Cunning, but devious. : Inquisitive, but incautious. : Rational, but impulsive. : Powerful, but spiteful. : Instinctive, but selfish. : Fearless, but reckless.
The point of all of this is to explain the "grudge" factor. Others call it "eye for an eye," but it is simple revenge.
I have been single targetted for a number of reasons, even grudges that had nothing to do with magic. My friends mostly hold grudges for just the one game that the grudge is made. If you Extirpate my favourite card, you will feel my wrath but I won't alpha strike you the rest of the night. The sportive players never hold grudges from match to match, the less sportive players sometimes do and I have seen people grudging all evening too. Grudge holding beyond the game is bad and luckily it doesn't happen too often in my playgroups.
I will admit that sometime ago I played unsportingly multiple times against one person. I alpha striked somebody multiple times because I love recursion (so I have it in lots of decks) and he played 3 Necrogenesis . Once I saw he was playing his jund deck I started beating him up to prevent him from annoying me with it. He eventually said that it took the fun out of the game for him and ever since I stopped alpha striking someone for something as silly as that. I like the guy and I want to keep playing with him (and I still do). My point here is that I like to think of myself as a reasonable and sportive person but sometimes that isn't enough. Because he told me how it made him feel that I was alpha striking him over Necrogenesis I realised what I jerk I was, apologized and stopped doing it. He still plays that deck with Necrogenesis and I still find it annoying, but if your not allowed to disrupt each other the game would be no fun real fast.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
I've experienced and taken part in conceding games but it's usually under friendly circumstances. Last night a guy had a win condition utilizing Bazaar Trader , Tormod's Crypt and some artifact I don't remember the name of. There were three of us and the other guy had a Quasali Pridemage out so he was safe. I mostly focused on the Win guy because he could take me out instantly if he got all the pieces together. In the end he took himself out by removing his own graveyard because he thought I had an answer. It changed the dynamic of the game for the other guy and myself taking some of the fun away.
I've conceded in multiplayer but only when it was myself and one other person left and I was certain I couldn't win even if I drew everything I wanted in the next five turns(if I survived that long) In that case I'd rather concede so we have time to start another game rather than waste time on a sure thing.
Grudges can be a nuisance...I'm guilty of it sometimes as well. If a guy comes at me and only me and I know I can't win then I'll throw everything I have back at him in hopes I can keep him from winning as well. Gotta love the politics of multiplayer huh? If everyone is taking a nibble and I'm taken to a point I can't win then sometimes I'll just target the strongest person in hopes of making things a little more equal for the other players so it's more interesting to watch after I die
I will admit that sometime ago I played unsportingly multiple times against one person. I alpha striked somebody multiple times because I love recursion (so I have it in lots of decks) and he played 3 Necrogenesis . Once I saw he was playing his jund deck I started beating him up to prevent him from annoying me with it. He eventually said that it took the fun out of the game for him and ever since I stopped alpha striking someone for something as silly as that. I like the guy and I want to keep playing with him (and I still do). My point here is that I like to think of myself as a reasonable and sportive person but sometimes that isn't enough. Because he told me how it made him feel that I was alpha striking him over Necrogenesis I realised what I jerk I was, apologized and stopped doing it. He still plays that deck with Necrogenesis and I still find it annoying, but if your not allowed to disrupt each other the game would be no fun real fast.
What's wrong with going to the player that can disrupt your plan the most?
I'm a combo player and my pals know it, if they recognize a combo deck I'm playing I'd understand why they'd go to me (we have the attack left rule most of the time).
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?
How to autocard (do this to specify a card in your posts): Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus . Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One .
It ruined the game for that deck. Once I started going all out assault on the single deck, everytime he played it, even if he didn't have the Necrogenesis in play or in hand, he was screwed because he had to use his resources to defend from me. Even if there were much more threatening players at the time (or even cards in hand/play that were much more threatening for me).
It wasn't even the most tactical play because this way I practically handed the game to the other players at the table.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block)
you loads
Keino
x 236 Diety: 
125/200 
=2x
dmg/
=4
dmg)
