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3 years ago ::
Mar 12, 2010 - 1:52PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2008
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This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 14, 2010 - 9:16PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2009
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I think we all knew Maro would end with Doubling Season.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 14, 2010 - 9:44PM
#3
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I didn't! But I just wanna' mention that I think Ovinomancer kind of skews the rest of the competition a bit. Against Pyromancer's Ascension, which is extremely fun, it really can't compare if you ask me. Let me take the liberty of just altering the brackets accordingly:
Ovinomancer vs. Pyro' Ascension -> Pyro' Ascension Pyro' Ascension vs. Endless Whispers (which should've won. I mean, look at it! It's shenanitastic!) -> Endless Whispers Endless Whispers vs. Cytoshape -> Endless Whispers still Endless Whispers vs. Warp World -> Flip a coin. In the event of Endless Whispers, continue on. Otherwise, it wouldn't change the end result, just a few of the other ones Endless Whispers (potentially) vs. Doubling Season -> Can't argue with Doubling Season. Cheatyface was the only card that stood a chance.
I either agree or see a valid argument in the other side of every other choice, but Ovinomancer just isn't fun for either player. For what he does in your favor, he's nowhere near worth the unfun of getting him into play in order to use, let alone having to bounce him. For what he does to your opponent, he's even less fun. He takes your opponent's superstar creature and swaps for a sheep! That's exactly 0% fun for your opponent, and taking that into account makes him about 3% fun for you.
[/whining]
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3 years ago ::
Mar 14, 2010 - 9:47PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 29, 2006
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One of the things seeming to be missing in Maro's discussion of Fact or Fiction is the potential for politics in multiplayer. I have seen many FoFs and Brilliant Ultimatums resolved in manners you could only see due to multiple players' interests taken into account.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 14, 2010 - 9:48PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2001
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I didn't like being stuck with MaRo's choices rather than my own for the round of 8 and on. (In particular, I voted... not so much for Stuffy Doll as against Shaharazad; I also differed from MaRo on some others, but ones I expect to be close.) It would be cool, though no doubt a lot of work, to have some sort of applet that would automatically set the later round brackets according to your earlier choices.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
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3 years ago ::
Mar 14, 2010 - 9:54PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2004
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I like the fact that the two cards MaRo picked to be the finalists were both designed in Ravnica block, which remains my favorite block. And yeah, I was pretty sure that Doubling Season would end up winning it all. It seems I think alike with Mr. Rosewater.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 14, 2010 - 10:09PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2004
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I didn't like being stuck with MaRo's choices rather than my own for the round of 8 and on. (In particular, I voted... not so much for Stuffy Doll as against Shaharazad.)
Agreed. In fact, I'll go to a somewhat ridiculous amount of work to correct for his error in terms of my own choices.
Shaharazad vs. Stuffy Doll Stuffy Doll wins! This is a no-brainer as mentioned above; Shaharazad is a nuisance card which wastes tons of time accomplishing almost nothing. Stuffy Doll is a guy who likes to stab himself and can not only survive a Shivan Meteor to the face but win the game in the process. MaRo talked about Stuffy as if it was nothing but a Wall with nostalgic flavor; it's so much more.
Doubling Season vs. Elvish Promenade Doubling Season wins! Pretty inevitable. They do basically the same thing except that one is powerful and straightforward, while the other is vastly open-ended. Elvish Promenade isn't that different from Firecat Blitz or Martial Coup or Spontaneous Generation or any other token-maker, but Doubling Season is unique in the game's history and has endless potential hilarity.
Cheatyface vs. Mindslaver Cheatyface...wins. I guess. Seriously, I wanted to abstain from this vote; I hate both cards with a passion. But if I want to complete the ladder, I have to pick. MaRo cheerleading for Cheatyface burns me up, but Mindslaver is a card that still fills me with unutterable loathing. This is one of those bridges I feel Magic should never have crossed. So I guess I pick the one I hate a little less to advance; both do something that Magic shouldn't have done, but at least Cheatyface is silver-bordered, so we knew it was wacky and didn't count as a "real" card.
Fact or Fiction vs. Radiate Radiate wins! Admittedly, Radiate's five-mana cost makes it hard to use; six mana to turn Shock or Lightning Bolt into a small Earthquake is hardly impressive. I've not yet found an awesome use for Radiate, though as a tertiary Johnny I'm happy to keep looking; also, Fact or Fiction is enjoyable to play, creating many interesting decisions regardless of the sophistication of the players. I don't blame MaRo for voting for fun play over fun possibility, but I've sort of made a career of preferring potential awesomeness to actual neatness (because, you see, "awesome" is a greater quantity of cool than "neat"); a million imaginary dollars are comparable in value to one actual dollar in terms of how much fun you can have with them, and doing something impressive with Radiate is about as likely as winning the lottery. So the question is whether Fact or Fiction's actual fun amounts to enough "real dollars" in this example. And honestly, it probably does, but I still voted for Radiate. FoF is so classically a Spike power card that I'm forced to deduct points from it just for the potential unfun of someone using it to beat me. Nevertheless, this was a very interesting and close matchup.
Ovinomancer vs. Endless Whispers Endless Whispers wins! Endless Whispers is right up there with Doubling Season in terms of being one of the classic table-shake-uppers; if you refrain from the temptation to do dumb obvious things like Sneak Attack + Phage that just win the game, you can have many turns of delicious chaos from a card like this. Ovinomancer, meanwhile, is a hilarious idea for a card, but an incredibly bad actual card, almost impossible to use effectively, and especially punishing to the very same casual players who would enjoy it most (Spikes can combine it with Fastbond or the like to some good effect, or simply refrain from using it except on must-kill targets; Timmy, however, wants to be able to play this in any old deck just for the joy of turning every creature he sees into a sheep, and the card punishes him horribly if he makes the attempt).
Cytoshape vs. Phantom Nishoba Cytoshape wins! MaRo got this one perfectly right. The Nishoba (and wtf is a Nishoba anyway? stupid made-up fantasy pabulum, gimme a Phantom Hydra or something that's actually cool to someone besides the dork who thought up the idea while coming down from a bad citric acid trip) is just a big dumb beatstick who ends games; Cytoshape is often just a removal spell, but it sometimes performs hilarious tricks, and that puts it leagues ahead of the Nishoba. As an aside, Cytoshape comes from the best block in Magic's history, while the Nishoba comes from the second or third worst; this outcome was pretty much inevitable.
Warp World vs. Day of the Dragons Warp World wins! MaRo had this one on the nose too - Day of the Dragons might be cool, except that with an Anger or Fervor or Pandemonium in the mix, it just instantly wins and the fun is over before it began. Actually, with things like Siege-Gang Commander and Ob Nixilis around, Warp World often has the same problem, but it produces a lot more enjoyable havoc when it isn't insta-winning; at best, Day of the Dragons + lots of dorks just gives you lots of large flying dorks, just like Sigil of the New Dawn + Flickering Ward or Meloku + Coat of Arms could do. The fun potential of dorks is limited, IMO, and I disapprove of most of the tricks that can be done around ETB/LTB effects to try and make them more interesting, so Day of the Dragons really doesn't do it for me.
Booster Tutor vs. Pools of Becoming Pools of Becoming wins! I'm irritated with how hard MaRo pimps Booster Tutor in this article; the fact that Wizards gets $4 every time someone plays this card obviously has nothing to do with the way he gushes enthusiastically about the awesomeness of playing what is essentially a Limited Wish (hm, I think I've found the card's name if they ever do break down and print it in a real set). While Pools of Becoming is even less a "real card" than the Unhinged staple, I'm nonetheless more inclined to take it seriously; Booster Tutor is just an autolose to me because of my prejudice against crass commercialism, although even if I ranked it fairly, the fact that it doesn't do anything in and of itself, just sets you up to play some other card, means it would lose to the wild-and-craziest of Planechase's wild and crazy planes.
My New Phyrexia Writing CreditsMy M12 Writing CreditsAs far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
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3 years ago ::
Mar 14, 2010 - 10:41PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2004
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Next round of my matchups:
Stuffy Doll vs. Doubling Season Stuffy Doll wins! This is probably me biasing myself against the card that won in MaRo's picks, but really, while I was writing my prior post, I realized how much more funny Stuffy Doll is than I even thought (maybe not fun to play, certainly not fun to play against, but with enough sheer conceptual fun to make up for this). Doubling Season is neat, but not really in a wild-and-crazy way, and is another of those cards that doesn't do anything in and of itself, just helping out other cards. So it does not top Stuffy Doll in my current estimation.
Cheatyface vs. Radiate Radiate wins! Inevitable in view of the fact that I didn't want Cheatyface to advance to this round any more than its opponent; Radiate would have likely lost against a real opponent, but it keeps coming up against cards I'm biased against, so it coasts ahead once more.
Endless Whispers vs. Cytoshape Endless Whispers wins! Cytoshape is a one-time effect and is often used simply as removal. It can't even begin to compete against a board-altering chaos card.
Warp World vs. Pools of Becoming Warp World wins! Sorry, Pools; if this pick had been just "Planechase" instead of one particular plane, you could have won, but at this point it becomes necessary for me to select a card that can be played in any Magic format (well, except Standard) and packs a significant percentage of the fun of Planechase itself into just one spell.
My New Phyrexia Writing CreditsMy M12 Writing CreditsAs far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
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3 years ago ::
Mar 14, 2010 - 10:45PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2004
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Next round:
Stuffy Doll vs. Radiate Stuffy Doll wins! As I said before, Radiate's fun is far too theoretical to stand up against a real competitor, and Stuffy Doll is riding high on my new appreciation for it.
Endless Whispers vs. Warp World Endless Whispers wins! I'm picking the card which sees play earlier, has less potential to instantly win if your deck is designed to make that happen (it at least requires you to have certain things, like a Phyrexian Ghoul, already on the table; Warp World doesn't care if you have anything besides mana sources), and is less well-known (I said two weeks ago that I was annoyed at Warp World just because MaRo counts it as a classic definition of fun; this kind of pre-loading always annoys me and I'm inclined to discriminate against its beneificiary).
My New Phyrexia Writing CreditsMy M12 Writing CreditsAs far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
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3 years ago ::
Mar 14, 2010 - 10:49PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2004
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Final Round:
Stuffy Doll vs. Endless Whispers Endless Whispers wins! By a narrow margin; both of these are extremely strong contenders to me. But Stuffy Doll is more straightforward and predictable, plus easier to remove despite being indestructible, plus it lacks multiplayer friendliness, plus much of its awesomeness is tied up in nostalgia and an in-joke. Global enchantments with profoundly game-changing effects are high on my list of enjoyable things, and it's not surprising that both MaRo and me picked one to win. I respect his choice of Doubling Season (if not of Cheatyface and Shaharazad), but have my own reasons for picking otherwise. I will show more appreciation for Endless Whispers as a result of this poll having reminded me of its existence and potential for awesomeness.
My New Phyrexia Writing CreditsMy M12 Writing CreditsAs far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
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