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3 years ago ::
Mar 08, 2010 - 3:36PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2008
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This thread is for discussion of this week's Serious Fun, which goes live Tuesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 08, 2010 - 9:14PM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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What is more "fun"?
Everybody does essentially nothing but squirt out ever-larger creatures in a stagnant deadlock, then someone resolves Insurrection or something and the game just ends; or a game in a constant flux of things entering and leaving play, complex attack steps full of stuff going on, with no guaranteed instant wins just because someone finally dropped that ninth land?
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3 years ago ::
Mar 08, 2010 - 9:14PM
#3
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I haven't even read the article yet, but I love the title!
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3 years ago ::
Mar 08, 2010 - 9:29PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2003
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What is more "fun"?
Everybody does essentially nothing but squirt out ever-larger creatures in a stagnant deadlock, then someone resolves Insurrection or something and the game just ends; or a game in a constant flux of things entering and leaving play, complex attack steps full of stuff going on, with no guaranteed instant wins just because someone finally dropped that ninth land?
What is more fun? Everybody does essentially nothing but squirt out ever-larger creatures in a stagnant deadlock, or a game where everybody does essentially nothing at all, because one player isn't interested in committing to the board, and the other player wants to do stuff, but it all gets bounced or countered?
Hindering Light  is the sort of counterspell that I like to see. And yes, I have run it in both Limited and Constructed (although the former was a mistake, all things considered). Countering Cruel Ultimatum  with it (in both formats) is pretty sweet. Incidentally, I've played a lot of games without anyone playing counterspells or bounce, and they did not result in a stagnant deadlock of creatures. Instead, they involved fewer guessing games and more tricky combat math. Sounds like a plus to me.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 08, 2010 - 9:59PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jul 10, 2003
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What's more fun? Intentionally playing with bad decks and letting kids win so they feel better about themselves so they continue to think their white/green lifegain deck is good and to appease your friends who aren't serious about getting better at tournament-level Magic, or teaching people that every strategy has its weakness and the point of the game is to constantly test and tweak your deck against the more prevalent decks on the quest to solve the riddle of the "best" deck of the format?
Anyway, I tend to only play limited Magic in-person because it's one of the only formats where you can play with the casual crowd while still improving your skills and not worrying about the drama of person X, who is a combo player, refusing to play against decks with counterspells.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 08, 2010 - 10:01PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2004
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I don't hate blue, I have a double standard for it. I hate to go up against counters and theft, and bounce is annoying, but I love, love, copy effects, and blue is copy's king. I profess a dislike for blue despite my monoblue shapeshifter tribal that is one of my pet decks. It's one of three or four I have that I consider purely fun, and that I will sling when all I want is to play a good fun game where winning and losing are secondary for me. It's an odd relationshop we have, blue and I.
This is the happy swamp. Love it. I am red/blue, I think logically and act impulsively.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 08, 2010 - 10:06PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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We're discussing a multiplayer format. You can't sit back and counter absolutely everything. Statements like, "oh, and I managed to get my ninth land, so I win now" is why I don't play EDH any more. I don't know what type of play group Digges has, but I stopped after the third consecutive week of a four hour long game ending with something huge and nasty sticking. I think it's less to do with the color, and more to do with what he's playing. Now, I'd be lying if I said Glimpse the Unthinkable  was ever viable as a strategy, even when paired with twincast. To an experienced player, mill is slower, more inefficient burn. However, to a new player, being milled to death is devastating. The term I'm probably looking for is griefer cards. You're playing with griefer cards.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 08, 2010 - 10:19PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Nov 28, 2007
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well written, 2 thumbs up
while I don't agree with everything you have said, I like the thought process, and I think that for each person (if they are willing to be honest) there is some part of magic that just doesn't excite them. Congrats on willing to speak up on the subject, and my appologies for those who miss the point of the article and attack you for it.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 08, 2010 - 10:27PM
#9
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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We're discussing a multiplayer format. You can't sit back and counter absolutely everything.
Nope, which is why the role of counterspells in multiplayer is to be "removal" for sorceries and instants.
The term I'm probably looking for is griefer cards. You're playing with griefer cards.
Yes, yes they are. Griefer cards serve the vitally important role of teaching players "you can't always get what you want", and nudging them away from overfilling on bigass "monsters!" and eggs-in-one-basket strategies.
It's our fault, really, for mercilessly mauling newbs and being tormentors instead of mentors.
- When a deck falls apart because a critical card was countered or destroyed, it's an indication of the deck being too focused around a single "super awesome(!)" win, with no backup plan. It's important to explain to players that this is a bad idea.
- When the opponent complains when his deck gets shredded by counters and removal, Explain Tempo.
- Then, switch to aggro and beat him silly before he can even get to that ninth land. Explain that speed is more important than "big".
- When he complains that all you do is dogpile him with little guys, switch to land destruction. Explain the concept of mana curve.
- When he complains that having to play small "boring" creatures is no fun, let him play your aggro deck against the LD or Control. Explain that even the most "unfair" strategies have exploitable weaknesses.
If that player has an epiphany and begins to see that he can do stuff and have fun without overloading on "fun" cards and crying foul when his "fun" is undone, we've got someone who will eventually develop as a player and stop whining about the other guy actually having the nerve to interact. If he quits in disgust, we didn't need him anyway.
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3 years ago ::
Mar 08, 2010 - 10:39PM
#10
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Urza/Invasion era power level counterspells made for really unfun games, but I started from around Onslaught. What was my most upset experience?
1. Having all my awesome four/five drop Beasts beaten up by a turn two Nantuko Shade. Geez, how can that thing be this broken?
2. Having my board locked up by Astral-Rift; especially seeing my Mistforms or Wizards eaten by an uncountered Lightning Rift (and Sparksmith), essentially having my deck destroyed.
3. (Two years later) Having most of my decks beaten by not-so-well-built Affinity decks. Cranial Plating on Thopter, take nine.
It's been a long time, and I've loved to play all five colors since, especially green. But I still have two complaints when it comes to "unfun" decks.
One is about decks that kill or control way too fast; counterspells may deny you your last Titanium Ultimatum, but you won't even have a sixth turn against Silgh, or a hand on the sixth turn against Cascade. I feel that all cards, counterspell, discard or burn, can be fun or unfun depending on how fairly it's costed.
The other complaint is how many games are decided by if a single card would turn up. It isn't an exaggeration that drawing a Firewalker or a Wall of Reverence turns a shaky matchup against Burn to a win, most of the time. Similarly, when I played control vs control in Ravnica era, I was upset that whoever sticks that Phyrexian Arena wins, most of the time.
The article is enlightening. I do believe that my Hedron Crab combo deck, with Oracle of Mul Daya and Time Warp, is more frustrating to my friends than my Eldrazi green and other decks. Especially that Time Warp. A well-built Time Warp deck is always one that annoys semi-casual players (Fog number FOUR?), and I advise everyone to use it a bit less in these settings. Aside from this, I think things differ from player to player, and I'm sure there are people who love to anti-lock your Turbofog deck with Kor Sancitifiers + Kor Skyfisher.
So it's important to understand what your friends like or hate to play against, in a casual/semi-casual setting.
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Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block)
