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Nov 14, 2009 -- 5:57PM, rxp wrote:

So disfigure can be sideborded  now eh? even with the popularity of Jund?

So I was correct about saddistic sacrament being the most direct(and only?) answer to Iona Shield of Emeria?

I like infest better than marsh. no need to pay for the uber expensive 3.  If your afraid of killing your own creatures then you probably don''t need that mass kill card. besides we have grim discovery.

Um actually no you are incorrect, Sacrament is not the only answer.  Executioner's Capsule is also an answer.  It only has to be on board the turn before they drop Iona. Yeah they can always remove it, but that is likely another turn delaying when they drop it and that may be all you need. 
 
Infest and Marsh Casualities serve two different functions.  I dont want a turn 3 sweeper I want a cheap sweeper for mana dorks or killing that T1 Lynx and T2 Geopede that allows me to drop a Nighthawk or kicked Gatekeeper on T3.  I also want a mid game answer to Conqueror's Pledge with the benefit of not wiping my Black Knights off the board.  Wasting Grim Discovery to yank back 1 of the creatures you end up throwing into the yard is a waste of resources when I can just cast a spell that performs the same effect and lets me swing past any tokens they just created. 

You are right I do not NEED a general mass kill card, nor am I afraid to kill my own creatures.   I WANT a situational sweeper that can set my opponent back by killing their mana dorks, a lynx/geopede start or serve as an mass token creation when the kicked cost is irrelevant--all while preserving card advantage.  In all of these instances Marsh Casualties is just plain better.  Every other instance I could care less---which is why I dont want infest.

Nov 14, 2009 -- 8:37PM, Vkand wrote:

Um actually no you are incorrect, Sacrament is not the only answer.  Executioner's Capsule is also an answer.  It only has to be on board the turn before they drop Iona. Yeah they can always remove it, but that is likely another turn delaying when they drop it and that may be all you need. 
 
Infest and Marsh Casualities serve two different functions.  I dont want a turn 3 sweeper I want a cheap sweeper for mana dorks or killing that T1 Lynx and T2 Geopede that allows me to drop a Nighthawk or kicked Gatekeeper on T3.  I also want a mid game answer to Conqueror's Pledge with the benefit of not wiping my Black Knights off the board.  Wasting Grim Discovery to yank back 1 of the creatures you end up throwing into the yard is a waste of resources when I can just cast a spell that performs the same effect and lets me swing past any tokens they just created. 

You are right I do not NEED a general mass kill card, nor am I afraid to kill my own creatures.   I WANT a situational sweeper that can set my opponent back by killing their mana dorks, a lynx/geopede start or serve as an mass token creation when the kicked cost is irrelevant--all while preserving card advantage.  In all of these instances Marsh Casualties is just plain better.  Every other instance I could care less---which is why I dont want infest.

hmm looking at the card now a one sided -1/-1 for 2 mana is not soo bad and executioner's capsule...have to mix and match my sideboard... thanks

Nov 15, 2009 -- 9:22AM, Niche wrote:

You guys are doing subtle things that ruin the deck:
You need a minimum 2x Vess. Haunting Echoes is garbage maindeck. I've never seen it win me a game. And its a loss of CA. In fact I'm not convinced it doesn't do something terrible when misplayed like setting up your opponent's draws for the rest of the game. I said before Sorin was neat, but he is overcosted for his 2 drain effect. You need 4 BKs and 3 Hexmages. Nightmare is ok, but Ob Nix is better if you're running 8 fetches. 

Regarding removals... I view it like this: 4 Tendrils, 4 Gatekeepers. That's solid removal. Then you've got 7 more conditionals in my last build via 3 Grim Discovery and 4 Nighthawks. So that's 15 answers, which is pretty strong and even twice as fortunate that these answers are tempo builders.

Regarding Doom Blade: Yes, its a powerful card. Gobbles up BSAs, bant decks, and still performs instant speed removal on rdw. But it doesn't help vs. vampires, which disfigure does. However deathmark eats up BSA and bant decks. And deathmark eats up almost everything jund plays, while doom blade does not. In all honesty I don't need Disfigure for vampires, its for Bushwhacker. But Doom Blade would handle that deck better.... I just like being able to plug in a disfigure for 1cc and make other plays. I'll give Doom Blade a try over Disfigure in the board 3x for 3x. It may work out.

 And btw, when Jund plays 4x GSS in a row you probably lose unless you're running 4 gatekeepers+3 fbms + 3 castles + 4 grim discovery. It's just ridiculous. However if you were using my last list I think you got unlucky as 4 keepers + 3 grims + 2 castles should dig you out. Nearly 1/6th of your list.

 Against Planeswalker Control the key is to recur Hexmage, recur Hexmage, recur Hexmage. Goblin Assault is a beating but its actually a sub-par card for them now... and it doesn't defend. If you play a gatekeeper and just leave it to block its not even an issue. Its not a bye, and it will go long... so you've got to win game 1. Then take game 2 to time and win the match.

Nice thread Niche .  And yeah, Haunting Echoes is absolute trash in this deck.  I tried, thinking OMG so good after Mind Sludge.  Then I realized anything is good after Mind Sludge, and Echoes did almost nothing in 95% of games.  Just don't run it - there's so many better cards. 

I'm going to have to give this build a try once I can get ahold of more fetchlands to abuse grim discovery.  I've been playing a more controlling build with fewer creatures and more removal/walkers - it's done well, but not well enough IMO.

Nov 15, 2009 -- 10:44AM, Vkand wrote:

Niche, given the value of recurring Hexmages and Gatekeepers, what is the reasoning for the 4/3 SiB/GD split?  Why not 4/3 GD/SiB?  Is it just you would rather see an early SiB than GD?

Sign in Blood is a guaranteed 2 for 1 card, and it can provide a few points of reach if needed to end a game. GD is often a 2 for 1, but not always and as such you may have to hold it. Playing it as a replacement card isn't good enough.

Bloodwitch is a good finisher, but she can be outclassed by say.. Sphinx of Jwar... or put in defense mode by a BSA until you draw removal. That's why I like having alternative winners. Be it a Nightmare or an Ob Nix.

Banshee, you're probably right about Fleshbags in the board. And definitely over Echoes. I've said before its the first card I'd cut to make room for something else. Or perhaps the sideboard would look more intelligent as: -3 Disfigure, -3 Deathmark, +3 Doom Blade, +3 Fleshbag. Seems to have a little more pop and in the right matchup all 6 can be relevant.

This may be the best sideboard currently:
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Pithing Needle
3 Doom Blade
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Duress