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4 years ago ::
Nov 05, 2009 - 4:46PM
#1
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This thread is for discussion of the Judge Article The Layer System.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 05, 2009 - 6:07PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2006
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These layers have driven me crazy since I returned to the game. I'm no expert on them now having read the article, but I definitely have a better grasp on the concept. It's like some code was deciphered. I feel like an article like this really was overdue and I am sure I will be referencing it from time to time.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2009 - 4:02AM
#3
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I can't wipe the smile off of my face. This always happens when someone else references one of my FAQs--I start to feel all warm and fuzzy inside and this inane grin of paternal pride paints itself across my face. It generally takes a few minutes for the ego-swelling to wear off, but when it's in an official article on the site...this may take a day or two. :P Huh; looks like the author email isn't working. I guess they don't set it up for non-columnists or something. I managed to find another way to contact Justin to respond, though.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
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4 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2009 - 9:03AM
#4
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It's nitpicky, but shouldn't that be layer 6 mentioned in 7c of the 4th question? That's the one where all the abilities get wiped out - except for the Opalescence, the Copy of Opalescence, and Humility, all of which started applying their abilities before they got wiped out. I'm trying to hammer that part into my head, as I had originally assumed that the Opalescence part carried over because you can't have a creature without a power/toughness that's set. Of course, this could be the reason why the rules let an ability that started applying continue to apply all parts.
MTG Rules Advisor
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4 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2009 - 11:24AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2007
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Yeah, there's a mistake in Question #2 Giant Growth and Lignify These two, now according to the new rules, no longer apply in the same layer. Lignify always goes first (setting the creature as 0/4) as it's in layer 7b. Giant Growth modifies the P/T later in 7c (giving the creature +3/+3). This is specifically mentioned (even in the examples, where one example is Lignify, and the other is Giant Growth) earlier in the column. However, I really do like the article! Having a "flow chart" of the different layers helps sort these layers out in my head. I also didn't realize the revision of the layers in M10, but the changes definitely help out with dependencies - there's more layers, so fewer corss-overs inside layers.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2009 - 1:19PM
#6
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Found this article from the DCIJUDGE list. I first learned the layer system when I heard a L0 friend mention the changes to layers, and realized that I didn't even know what they were. NOTE: In layer 6 all three enchantments lose their abilities. This does NOT create a paradox or infinite loop. All three enchantments started applying their abilities before they lost them, so they will continue to apply each part of their ability even though they no longer have them.
What about permanents which enter the battlefield after Humility resolves? Ex. I cast Opalescence, Opalescence, and Humility, and now control three 1/1 enchantment creatures with no abilities (I think). I then cast Oblivion Ring. What happens now?
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4 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2009 - 1:57PM
#7
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You know, I'm not sure. I'm guessing, since the triggered ability doesn't apply during any of the layers that it's a 1/1 creature for 2W. If I'm wrong, the other option is that you get to exile something indefinitely, especially if the ring dies prior to Humility going away.
MTG Rules Advisor
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4 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2009 - 3:53PM
#8
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It's a 1/1 for 2W that doesn't do anything when it comes into play. When something happens, you apply continuous effects before you figure out if any abilities trigger, and Humility has removed the ability that would normally have triggered. You don't take the end-result game state (with blank Humility and Opalesences) and then drop Oblivion Ring into that--you drop Oblivion Ring onto the table, then re-build the game state from scratch.
And so people say to me, "How do I know if a word is real?" You know, anyone who's read a children's book knows that love makes things real. If you love a word, use it! That makes it real. Being in the dictionary is an artificial distinction; it doesn't make the word any more real than any other word. If you love a word, it becomes real.
--Erin McKean, Redefining the Dictionary
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4 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2009 - 4:21PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Sep 14, 2009
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You know the layer system still needs more work when WotC's own article trying to explain it contains errors.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 07, 2009 - 2:18PM
#10
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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You know the layer system still needs more work when WotC's own article trying to explain it contains errors.
There's really not much way to simplify it.
At any rate, it's not likely to be simplified until 'layer shenanigans' start annoying noobs and flavor-nazis in quantities we used to get from DOTS shenanigans.
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