Hmm, I dunno if this would work, but possibly changing it from a triggered ability to a replacement effect would stop that combo. "As O-ring comes into play, exile target non-land permanent. ..." Wording it like that means that you can't respond to the ability and bounce it back to your hand before the targeted permanent is exiled. You would have to respond to the O-ring while it's on the stack, and in that case nothing has been Exiled yet.
Hmm, I dunno if this would work, but possibly changing it from a triggered ability to a replacement effect would stop that combo. "As O-ring comes into play, exile target non-land permanent. ..." Wording it like that means that you can't respond to the ability and bounce it back to your hand before the targeted permanent is exiled. You would have to respond to the O-ring while it's on the stack, and in that case nothing has been Exiled yet.
Sigh. Once again, I will remind people (though I will not launch into all the little details that I believe Condor once did) that replacement abilities cannot target--when would you choose the target, what would happen if the target become illegal since a replacement effect never resolves, etc.?
The best "fix" for this (I quote "fix" because it is not broken, despite what some may try to have you believe, and there is no need to fix it when it is very easy to suck it up and deal with it) is to include an intervening-if clause in the first ability: "When Oblivion Ring comes into play, if it's in play, exile target nonland permanent."
This fix will not happen, however, unless something drastic happens to lead to its change. Those not liking it accusing Wizards of not knowing what they're doing (whether by outright calling them liars or by trying to "fix" what isn't broken) is not one of those things that'll cause this to change.
@Fireball-debate: Are you still trying to argue with people who actually know about what they speak?
Here's an idea: Suck it up and play the cards the way they were written. I trust Wizards to know what they're doing a lot more than I'd trust you, and they were aware of this interaction when they printed the card.
Wizards has different priorities than me. They chose the template they did for Oblivion Ring because they wanted players to be able to use it in a non-obvious way to generate an overpowered effect so they could feel clever about bending the rules and take advantage of unprepared opponents. Catering to such a mindset does not interest me; I would rather have cards that are flavorfully representative of a "realistic" (within context) idea, such as storing a creature inside a magic ring which bars it from interacting with the playing field, and am not interested in having rules which allow players to succeed at the expense of this flavor.
The purpose of this thread is not to debate whether Oblivion Ring should work differently; I have already made my decision on that. I am merely asking those with better comprehension of the rules than me to confirm whether the template I have proposed does what I want it to.
Oh and, you want a fix?
Oblivion Truly Wrong 2W
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Permament
Enchanted permanent loses all abilities.
Rules question? Have you read the Basic rulebook already? No? Why not take some time to do that?
How to autocard (do this to specify a card in your posts): Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus . Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One .
If the attempt is to close the loophole, then the ability should be one trigger with an intervening if clause that has a continuous effect with a conditional duration. Something like:
When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, if Oblivion Ring is in play on the battlefield, exile target permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play the battlefield.
er wait no that doesn't work...or does it? *Brain fuzzy this morning - need coffee*
hmm perhaps a replacement effect that modifies the way it enters play.
As Oblivion Ring enters play the battlefield, exile target permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play the battlefield.
oh right, Condor nixed that one, but Devour lets you choose creatures as a replacement effect likewise the abilities on Clone and Vesuvan Shapeshifter.
MtG Rules Advisor & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ DJ Vortex
DCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320
Wit found in Rules Q&A
RPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?"
The replacement effect won't work, because as Kedar already said, replacement effects can't target. Your first example would have been an acceptable way to close the loop hole.
Edit: misread your first example, and it doesn't work like that.
However, if oblivion ring wasn't meant to be used like this, Spoiler:Show
they wouldn't print the new card in zendikar with the same template. Tidehollow Sculler works the same way. If WotC thought the template was broken, I'm sure it would have been fixed by now.
The replacement effect won't work, because as Kedar already said, replacement effects can't target. Your first example would have been an acceptable way to close the loop hole.
However, if oblivion ring wasn't meant to be used like this, Spoiler:Show
they wouldn't print the new card in zendikar with the same template. Tidehollow Sculler works the same way. If WotC thought the template was broken, I'm sure it would have been fixed by now.
hmm but you could get around the replacement effect targeting
Vesuvan Shapeshifter chooses a creature otb to copy as it enters play, therefore, it is allowable to choose something.
so with some fancy wording...
As Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, choose a permanent on the battlefield that Oblivion Ring could target as if it were an aura with enchant permanent and exile that permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play.
MtG Rules Advisor & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ DJ Vortex
DCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320
Wit found in Rules Q&A
RPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?"
If the attempt is to close the loophole, then the ability should be one trigger with an intervening if clause that has a continuous effect with a conditional duration. Something like:
When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, if Oblivion Ring is in play on the battlefield, exile target permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play the battlefield.
er wait no that doesn't work...or does it? *Brain fuzzy this morning - need coffee*
No, it does not. Zone change effects are one-shot effects which do not and can not have a duration.
hmm perhaps a replacement effect that modifies the way it enters play.
As Oblivion Ring enters play the battlefield, exile target permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play the battlefield.
oh right, Condor nixed that one, but Devour lets you choose creatures as a replacement effect likewise the abilities on Clone and Vesuvan Shapeshifter.
Static abilities cannot target, because only objects on the stack can ever have a target; replacement effects, whether generated by static abilities or continuous effects set up by resolved spells, activated or triggersed abilities, simply cannot be objects on the stack.
Neither Clone nor Vesuvan Shaopeshifter target anything. The choice that is made is a nontargeting choice (which is why you can Clone a creature with Shroud, or sacrifice them to Devouring creatures and so oin.)
The way to get what Willpell wants is to add an intervening If clause to the first trigger, so it does not remove the targeted permanent if the O-Ring leaves play before its ETB trigger resolves (see Necromancy.)
The fact that R&D don't do it (and eight years after the release of the first card with this combo are still putting out more) is that they feel it is not overpowered, and adds something to the game (an "Oh I see" moment) that is one of the main hooks for a certain type of player.
If the attempt is to close the loophole, then the ability should be one trigger with an intervening if clause that has a continuous effect with a conditional duration. Something like:
When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, if Oblivion Ring is in play on the battlefield, exile target permanent until Oblivion Ring leaves play the battlefield.
er wait no that doesn't work...or does it? *Brain fuzzy this morning - need coffee*
No, it does not. Zone change effects are one-shot effects which do not and can not have a duration.
Not? Like all those blink effects? :/ Momentary Blink etc. Turn to Mist is a better example actually.
No, it does not. Zone change effects are one-shot effects which do not and can not have a duration.
Not? Like all those blink effects? :/ Momentary Blink etc. Turn to Mist is a better example actually.
Maybe I just misunderstood what you meant.
Turn to Mist: Exile target creature. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step.
There is no duration there. There is a one-shot effect as the spell resolves - "Exile target creature" - and another one-shot effect that happens at the beginning of the next end step - "Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control".
By comparison:
Giant Growth: Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn.
There is a continuous effect - "Target creature gets +3/+3" - with a duration - "until end of turn".
Momentary Blink etc. Turn to Mist is a better example actually.
Turn to Mist is a perfect example, thanks.
If it were possible to write a zone change effect as a continuous effect with a duration, Turn to Mist would be worded "Exile target creature until end of turn." It is not worded that way precisely because zone change events are one-shot effects, not continuous effects.
