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Taimon wrote:

Im afraid condor here you are wrong, you see you are gaining 2 life five times, the very word simultaneously means all at once,...

Yes, it does. That is precisely what makes all of the "points" indistinguishable from one another. If you want to continue to disagree, please point out the rule or ruling you think defines a way to distinguish them. Because all you have offered so far is your made-up concept of "instances" of life gain. This is a concept that does not exist in Magic, no matter how certain you are that it should.

Te rules may not care, but then that wasn't my point, my point was about the language being used.

The lanuage we are dealing with here is "Whenever you gain life." Please tell me, where do you think that distinguishes points from different sources, or even your made-up "instances" ? Because it is the wording of the triggered ability, not the cause of the event that triggers it, that determines how many times it triggers.

However if the rule for lifelink was written differently ...

The wording of lifelink is totally irrelevant.

This was my point, the language used currently isn't ambiguous, it's quite clear...

Yes, it is - but you are looking in the wrong place.

Please understand this, my point was that the language used in the rules could cause confusion,...

Please understand this - it is your unfounded assumption, and nothing else, that is causing confusion. Cradle's triggered ability is watching the game for events where your life total increases by a positive number N, and nothing else. It does not care about what caused it to happen. When it sees such an event, it triggers. When that trigger resolves, you gain N life. And even if the concept of "instances" exited, the fact that they all occur simultaneously assures that Cradle triggers once. To trigger 5 times, your life total would have the values L+2, L+4, L+6, L+8, and L+10 at different times.

What I am thinking is u have to either pay once or pay all available manna for all five attacks. What they did is making sure that lifelink can not be stacked on the same creature with lifelink already in place but for this instance is tricking since there are five 2/2 zombie creatures with lifelink at the time of the attack. What I believe is whenever a life is gained; you have to pay once since you are gaining 10 life regardless of the damage of either the creatures or direct damage to the opponent. The sharding states when a artifact creature attacks and deals damage to the opponent but for this question is straight forward based on the wording of the card. you gained life, pay the coast, and the target creature gets that many counter based on the life gained either by lifelink or for example tainted sigil . Whenever you gained life the creature gets that many counters on it based on the life gained.

I don't know how many different ways i can say this, i was not talking about the rules, i was talking about how people were reading the rules.

Try to follow.
You gain life as you deal damage.
All damage is dealt simultaneously.
And so all life is gained simultaneously.

The definition of the word simultaneously is that several events happen all at once or concurrently, it is not that all events are a single event.
This still is not a rules issue

If your not gaining life equal to the damage each creature is dealing how do you know how much life to gain?
You know because each creature will gain you 2 life and you have five creatures, the product of 2 and 5 is 10, for a total life gain of 10.
This is NOT a statement of rules, but rather of reality, this addition, or multiplication, is NOT a fact of rules, but your still doing it, otherwise there is no way of knowing how much life to gain.

Which i have tried to point out multiple times, if you actually read my post you would see i was trying to explain why some people are transfering this into the rules, where it does not belong. You do move through this stage of thought but the rules ignore it.

Now Condor, please read the line which told you to ignore the rulebook, because as i have said I was not talking about the rules, but rather what a person will read the rule as saying if your saying the words do not say what i claim they do please cite your source.
It doesn't matter to my point that the concept exists in MTG, because it does in the English language, which was my initial point if you care to look, that looking at the lifelink rule alone the language indicates that it is not a single event, but rather five happening simultaneously.
The rules don't care and i never said they did

Laurie has posted the point i would make now, your told to do five things at once, when you do you compress these five events into a single result.
From the rules we don't care about the addition your doing, but you're still doing it.

Please understand, i'm not argueing the rules, you gain 10 life and the cradle triggers once, i have never argued with this and have supported the rules since my first post. Please not i said in the purest language which meant that it was not a statement of rules.
I then went on to point out that this reality of action, is not a function of any rule.

However how did you know to gain 10 life?
Because each creature is causing you to gain life all at once.

IF you still don't understand my point please answer these short questions.

1. Is all damage dealt simultaneously?
2. Is all lifelinks life gain dealt with siultaneously?
3. Is all damage and lifelink life gain resolved simultaneously?
4. Does the word simultaneously mean all at once?
5. Does the comp. rules tell us to gain one total of life?

If your answer to all five is yes, then you agree with my point but have misunderstood how i intended my post to be read, which will just further my point, sometimes the intention is at conflict with the definition, and so confusion will ensue.

Taimon wrote:

I don't know how many different ways i can say this,...

And I don't know how many ways I can tell you that I have understood everything you have said, and it is incorrect.

Try to follow this: what causes you to gain the life, and how it is caused, is irrelevant. If you simultaneously gain 10 "different" points of life - and "different" includes any and all differences you can imagine - the Cradle will trigger once. EVEN IF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING WERE TRUE, CRADLE WOULD TRIGGER ONLY ONCE.

The definition of the word simultaneously is that several events happen all at once or concurrently, it is not that all events are a single event. This still is not a rules issue

You are right, it is not a rules issue. BECAUSE THE RULES DO NOT DEFINE WHAT AN "EVENT" IS. Only the trigger does that. And this one does not distinguish points of life gained for different reasons. All it cares about is that the points are all dealt at the same time. That is what makes it one "Cradle of Vitality Event," as defined by Cradle of Vitality's text.

IF you still don't understand my point please answer these short questions.

I understand all of your points. Even the ones that are wrong.

1. Is all damage dealt simultaneously?

Yes. This is the only point that is important.

2. Is all lifelinks life gain dealt with siultaneously?

Yes.

3. Is all damage and lifelink life gain resolved simultaneously?

Here is one mistake. If you mean "resolved" in the same sense as "spells resolve," that word does not apply to combat damage. If, as I suspect, you mean "handled," that is the exact same thing as "dealt." This is a non-question.

4. Does the word simultaneously mean all at once?

Yes.

5. Does the comp. rules tell us to gain one total of life?

Here is the other. It says to gain the life simultaneously. It does not say whether this is, or is not, "gaining one total of life." Because the concept of "one gaining of life" has no meaning to the rules. This concept you are trying so hard to get across is understood, and is wrong. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF IT IS, OR IS NOT, "ONE GAINING OF LIFE." All that matters is that it is simultaneous.

And you completely misunderstood Laurie's point, because you are guilty of what you accuse others of. You are not reading their posts. He said that what the instructions are, is irrelevant. It is only the total net change in the game state that matters. In other words, "what causes the life gain" (what I said several times) = "the individual instructions" (what Laurie said that you admitted is what you meant) IS IRRELEVANT.

You are the one who needs to read, and digest, other's points. I understand yours. It is wrong.

NikoDarius wrote:

I agree with Condor's idea (which it has been confirmed to be true).

The rules support the interpretation and an [O] ruling backs it up.

NikoDarius wrote:

It's not difficult at all.

I don't know if I'd agree with that.
Triggered abilities can trigger multiple times from multiple occurences during the same event (603.2c). If the life gain was separate within the same event, an ability that triggered from life gain could be interpreted to trigger multiple times, however, the rules do seem to indicate that the life gain resulting from the dealt damage is one action and Cradle sees it as one action and only triggers once which is a change in functionality from the Pre-M10 rules.

NikoDarius wrote:

When you can activate abilities? Only when all damage is done.

not sure what relevance this has to the issue at hand

NikoDarius wrote:

When you can play Cradle ability have you already gained life? Yes. Because the new rule make no difference on when the damage is dealt and when you gain life. And as already said the Cradle doesn't do a source count

you don't play the Cradle ability, you choose to pay or not each time it triggers

NikoDarius wrote:

So finally the question is: Can you activate Cradle between a gain of life and another? The answer is absolutely not, because of the new rules.

once again you do not activate Cradle

NikoDarius wrote:

So when you control your new life level, you can only see a single rise equal to all the damage dealt by the creature with lifelink.

yes, this is correct

NikoDarius wrote:

A single rise of your life means a single event which triggers the Cradle once.

the logic is faulty
the life gain does happen during a single event but rule 603.2c does indicate that a single trigger can fire multiple times from the actions of a single event
if it was possible to have multiple separate life gains during a single event, it would be possible that there is a trigger condition that could fire multiple times for each of those life gains.

I'm not advocating this view, merely pointing out that one could argue a counter view arguing that each life gain from each source of damage with lifelink, although part of the same event, could trigger a triggered ability watching for lifegain multiple times.