|
4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 4:43PM
#81
|
Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2009
|
the logic is faulty
the life gain does happen during a single event but rule 603.2c does indicate that a single trigger can fire multiple times from the actions of a single event
if it was possible to have multiple separate life gains during a single event, it would be possible that there is a trigger condition that could fire multiple times for each of those life gains.
I'm not advocating this view, merely pointing out that one could argue a counter view arguing that each life gain from each source of damage with lifelink, although part of the same event, could trigger a triggered ability watching for lifegain multiple times.
Rules simply negate that view. All the damage is done at once and consequential life gains must be seen as a single, indivisible occurence, which triggers the ability once.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 4:49PM
#82
|
Date Joined:
Oct 29, 2007
|
Rules simply negate that view. All the damage is done at once and consequential life gains must be seen as a single, indivisible occurence, which triggers the ability once.
While I agree with you, it is not readily apparent and it wouldn't hurt if the rules were a bit more explicit on this matter.
MtG Rules Advisor &
Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJDJ VortexDCI Certified Rules Advisor from July 14, 2009 to July 14, 2012 DCI #5209514320 Wit found in Rules Q&ARPJesus: "Man, screw the rules, I'll play a game of 2HG Archenemy Planechase Emperor EDH draft yet. Once I figure out the rules for it..." Chaikov: "Of course, casual Magic may be played any way your Pokemon group agrees on..." and "It's not logic. It's Magic!" GainsBanding: "I only play online. The Magic Online shuffler is AWESOME!" Ikegami: "one might think [adult cats] would make excellent tokens. The issue, though, is that they are very hard to exile. They return to the battlefield more often than an undying creature." Astarael7: "Does 121.1 imply that players are supposed to wear their poison counters?" Bimmerbot: "If you move the wrong way and [the poison counters] fall, it's a game rule violation" Helluminatus: "Just remember, if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but the oracle text says creature - Bunny , then by god, it's a bunny." MadCow21: "Who are you and what have you done with the real Chaikov?" My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 4:51PM
#83
|
Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2009
|
it wouldn't hurt if the rules were a bit more explicit on this matter.
I agree with your view. Some rules could be written in a better, more explicit way
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 4:55PM
#84
|
Date Joined:
Feb 22, 2009
|
While I agree with you, it is not readily apparent and it wouldn't hurt if the rules were a bit more explicit on this matter.
The rules are pretty explicit, and the relevant rules have been quoted multiple times in the thread. Just don't pick and choose which rules you pay attention to.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Aug 17, 2009 - 7:48PM
#85
|
Date Joined:
Jul 30, 2004
|
Rules simply negate that view. All the damage is done at once and consequential life gains must be seen as a single, indivisible occurence, which triggers the ability once.
Not necessarily. A hypothetical card with the (rather clumsy) ability "whenever you gain life from a creature with lifelink dealing damage to a creature, player or planeswalker, draw a card" would trigger 5 times on 5 unblocked 2/2s with lifelink, or up to 10 times if those same 5 creatures were each blocked by multiple 1-toughness creatures, despite all the damage (and consequent lifegain) happening at once.
The lifegain happens as a single occurrence, but there is nothing in the rules that makes it inherently indivisible - it's only the awkwardness of dividing the life gain event into subsidiary events based on some criterion that is rarely relevant that keeps it from happening in practice...
M:tG Rules Advisor
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Aug 18, 2009 - 7:56AM
#86
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2001
|
Triggered abilities can trigger multiple times from multiple occurences during the same event (603.2c).
While this statement does express a correct outcome, it does so using some slightly faulty reasoning. It is a usually a very minor point, but in this case it is the fundamental flaw that has led some to conclude that Cradle triggers five times.
The point is that the expression “the same event” or “game event” really has no meaning to Magic in general, even though the rules seem to use it without defining it. “Event” only has a meaning to the individual triggered abilities and/or prevention-replacement effects that look for events happening. It is the text in those abilities, and that text alone, that define an event. So to see if some set of occurrences is “one event,” you have to work backwards from the text to what happened in the last set of simultaneous actions. Not forward from the set of actions to the text.
In fact, you might notice that what you called “the same event” and the rules calle a “game event,” I called a “set of occurrences.” You can’t call the result of any resolution or game action an “event” unless you are using an ability’s text to define it. So there can be “Cradle of Vitality events,” but there are no “Magic events.” I’m even going to edit your quotes to stop using “event” that way.
If the life gain was separate within the same [set of occurrences], an ability that triggered from life gain could be interpreted to trigger multiple times, however, the rules do seem to indicate that the life gain resulting from the dealt damage is one action.
Actually, the rules do not indicate that at all. They don’t need to. It is Cradle’s trigger that defines “one event” within the set of actions, whether or not they are one action or many. And if you look at the examples in rules 603.X and 509.4, you will see what I mean.
[color=”blue”]Originally Posted by NikoDarius
A single rise of your life means a single [set of occurrences which comprise a single Cradle of Vitality] event which triggers the Cradle once.[/color]
the logic is faulty
No, it is correct, because it is Cradle that defines “the event” here.
I'm not advocating this view, merely pointing out that one could argue a counter view arguing that each life gain from each source of damage with lifelink, although part of the same event, could trigger a triggered ability watching for lifegain multiple times.
Not really. The rules actually are as explicit as they need to be. The problem is when people make up definitions of a “game event” with no rules support, and try to use that to separate the “multiple triggered-ability events” that 603.2c talks about.
Not necessarily. A hypothetical card with the (rather clumsy) ability "whenever you gain life from a creature with lifelink dealing damage to a creature, player or planeswalker, draw a card" would trigger 5 times on 5 unblocked 2/2s with lifelink, or up to 10 times if those same 5 creatures were each blocked by multiple 1-toughness creatures, despite all the damage (and consequent lifegain) happening at once.
Probably not. “Gain life from….” Is not defined. The rules do define damage as having a source, but not life gain. You are trying to use that missing definition here. That’s why I said it couldn’t be done – there is no definition that allows this wording to work.
|
|
|
